First Center Fire Pistol... Which one?

[JPO]

I would like to purchase a center fire pistol which will have to serve as a jack of all trades… i.e. CCW, Bulls eye, and home defense. I am joining a new club and would like to start action shooting, so my choice of gun has to perform a number of tasks.

I also live in Ma. and have further limitations placed on me by the AG. I would like to have a gun chambered for .40 S&W because it is a compromise between the cost of ammo, its power, and its placement in USPSA and other action shooting sports. I am over 40 and have been a machinist and quality manager for my adult life, so I don’t like plastic guns. I would also like a light rail for a tactical light if possible. I have been shopping and haven’t had a lot of luck. I am a big guy with big hands so full size is just fine.

I am looking at the Para 1640 although it doesn’t have a light rail. The Sig P226 although it is aluminum and I am not sure of its wear characteristics. Any other ideas?

 

[BOBKATT]

Don't compromise, get a 1911 government.

 

[terraformer]

I would like to purchase a center fire pistol which will have to serve as a jack of all trades… i.e. CCW, Bulls eye, and home defense. I am joining a new club and would like to start action shooting, so my choice of gun has to perform a number of tasks.

I also live in Ma. and have further limitations placed on me by the AG. I would like to have a gun chambered for .40 S&W because it is a compromise between the cost of ammo, its power, and its placement in USPSA and other action shooting sports. I am over 40 and have been a machinist and quality manager for my adult life, so I don’t like plastic guns. I would also like a light rail for a tactical light if possible. I have been shopping and haven’t had a lot of luck. I am a big guy with big hands so full size is just fine.

I am looking at the Para 1640 although it doesn’t have a light rail. The Sig P226 although it is aluminum and I am not sure of its wear characteristics. Any other ideas?

The 226 is a little big for CCW but depending on your size, that may not be a big deal. All the other tasks it is well suited to. The 226 is a tank so you won't have wear issues. You may want to start with something suited for all the tasks other than CCW and buy a second one for that as you become proficient and comfortable enough to carry. The 2 gun scenario is also beneficial because 9mm is much cheaper to shoot so if you did the 226 in 9mm, and then say a 229 in .40 cal (my ccw) you have the best of both worlds. Cheap ammo at the range with the ballistics of the .40 in ccw.

Anyhow, if you want to stick to the one gun scenario, then the 226 is the way I would go. I am not a fan of para and think their stuff is overrated. Sig, HK, Beretta and colt are my preferred handguns. You will find that a bunch of NESers have P229s in .40 and usually shoot with something other than that @ the range.

 

[Raoul Duke]

The Sig P226 although it is aluminum and I am not sure of its wear characteristics. Any other ideas?

You will not wear the Sig 226 out. Really, there's a video I gave a minute towards finding but couldn't, in it, a couple of TV meatheads hang a Sig P226 from a rope and proceed to pound the hell out of it with an aluminum baseball bat, vigorously, for a few minutes. Then they pulled out the mag, loaded it up and fired it without even a misfire.

Sigs are known for their build quality.

 

[economist]

I don't know anything about Bullseye or action shooting (where mag capacity may be an issue), but for carry the Sig 239 is a lot easier to conceal than the 226 or 229 (for me, anyway) and is a very accurate and solid little pistol. [edited to add: I just realized you want a light rail -- go with the Sig 229].

 

[PistolPete]

I am an avid USPSA shooter and I carry a gun fairly often. If you're looking for a "do everything" type of gun you really shouldn't single out a polymer frame gun. A Glock (even though I'm personally not a big fan) is a great jack of all trades gun as is the S&W M&P series. I prefer the M&P but if you get a MA version it NEEDS a trigger job so consider that if you go this route. Both of these guns will serve you better in USPSA shooting for many reasons over the P226. The Sig is a good gun but because of the low grip hold the muzzle will rise higher than that of the other 2 guns.

As previously mentioned a 1911 is an awesome choice. I shoot double stack 1911's in competition and a sub compact for carry. You can find them in .40 but in MA they are hard to find. I would encourage you to come to Harvard Sportsmans Club on a Wed. evening to check out a USPSA practice. You will see all types of different guns and I'm sure most will even let you shoot them. That is a great way to try before you buy and to talk to a lot of experienced shooters to make an informed decision.

Keep in mind you will end up buying more guns. You'll "need" a gun for this and for that but in reality you really don't you'll just have the bug to buy more guns.

Welcome to the forum.

Pete

 

[RKG]

A 4" S&W K-Frame .357 Magnum revolver, preferably used with a threaded barrel and no lock.

Start with mid-range .38 Spl target loads (148 gr. wadcutter and 2.7 gr. Bullseye) and learn how to shoot a handgun with recoil. Then learn how to shoot DA. Then (and only then) graduate to an auto for other things.

The 4" can be carried; you can feed it mid-range .38s, full-load .38s, or .357s, depending on what you're going and what you're expecting to encounter.

 

[JPO]

1911

Don't compromise, get a 1911 government.

I would really like to. I am having a tough time finding a new one I can afford , and can afford to feed. 45 ACP is running around $5 more per 50 rounds than .40 S&W. And, believe me I will have to burn through a bunch to get my practice.

 

[Raoul Duke]

I would really like to. I am having a tough time finding a new one I can afford , and can afford to feed. 45 ACP is running around $5 more per 50 rounds than .40 S&W. And, believe me I will have to burn through a bunch to get my practice.

You're right about ammo cost. I suggest a P229 in 9mm if you must have a light rail or the P239 if you can live without. You can load personal defense ammo that, when well placed, (more likely with a 9 than a .45 for a new shooter) will achieve the results you need. Speer, Fed HS, etc.

The thing with an "all around" gun is that everything is a trade-off ultimately. It's up to you to decide what you can and cannot live without.

Ultimately, you're on the right track considering the cost to shoot...if you can't afford to shoot frequently, you won't improve the way you'll want to.

 

[JPO]

The 226 is a tank so you won't have wear issues.

I shot a 9mm Sig some 15 years ago and really liked the decocking feature SA/DA. I also thought it fit my hand well but that was 15 years ago and I don't remember the exact model.

I agree with you on its versatility. I have read some bad stuff mostly from action shooters about the SA/DA system and muzzle flip. But, I am looking for a jack of all trades to start with. If I get into the action shooting bug then I will have to buy a specific gun for that purpose.

I have read some things about wear on the aluninium frames, and springs. Springs are cheap but frames are not. I think that a little loving care and good polishing and lubrication will go a long way. Now if the AG would cut me some slack, I could get an Elite or X-5.

 

[terraformer]

I would really like to. I am having a tough time finding a new one I can afford , and can afford to feed. 45 ACP is running around $5 more per 50 rounds than .40 S&W. And, believe me I will have to burn through a bunch to get my practice.

Don't limit yourself to new. Between the AG regs and other horsecrap in this state, you will severely limit your choices. Also, firearms are things that can wear, but will generally hold their function for a very long time with only some general maintenance. About 80-85% of what I own, I bought used. Granted, I like buying new as much as the next guy but I have no issues with what I purchased used.

 

[terraformer]

I have read some things about wear on the aluninium frames, and springs. Springs are cheap but frames are not. I think that a little loving care and good polishing and lubrication will go a long way. Now if the AG would cut me some slack, I could get an Elite or X-5.

Ahhh, that is finish wear you are referring to. Yes, I have noticed that sigs, especially if maltreated, are a little prone to dings on their finish coat. I have some dings myself on my P229, most of which was there before I bought it so I can't speak to what it took to put them there. It seems to be attracted to the lip around the base of the grip. I have also seen some really beat on sigs and they functioned perfectly, but the finish was in rough shape. I can attest that these were beat on but good however. Any type of coated firearm (Beretta, Sig, FN, HK, etc) is going to have these issues. Keep care of it and you will likely limit the amount of it. If you would like, send me a PM with an email address and I will send you pictures of the wear on my P229 so you can see what you will dealing with.

Oh, and I hear you on the elite. I am looking into the feasibility of upgrading a std 226 to a tactical with parts. There is nothing in MA that prevents threaded barrels.

 

[JPO]

Just one Gun?

I prefer the M&P but if you get a MA version it NEEDS a trigger job so consider that if you go this route. Both of these guns will serve you better in USPSA shooting for many reasons over the P226. The Sig is a good gun but because of the low grip hold the muzzle will rise higher than that of the other 2 guns.

I have looked at the M&P and it does feel gook in the hand. I was concerned with the fact that the slide rides on sheetmetal tabs.

As previously mentioned a 1911 is an awesome choice. I shoot double stack 1911's in competition and a sub compact for carry. You can find them in .40 but in MA they are hard to find.

I was looking at a Para 1640... any knowledge of this particular model?

I would encourage you to come to Harvard Sportsmans Club on a Wed. evening to check out a USPSA practice. You will see all types of different guns and I'm sure most will even let you shoot them. That is a great way to try before you buy and to talk to a lot of experienced shooters to make an informed decision.

I am in the process of joining Hopkinton, and there are a few shooters there on Wed.

Keep in mind you will end up buying more guns. You'll "need" a gun for this and for that but in reality you really don't you'll just have the bug to buy more guns.

"Need" is such a relative term... Thanks for the feedback.

 

[Scrivener]

I have looked at the M&P and it does feel gook in the hand. I was concerned with the fact that the slide rides on sheetmetal tabs.

You're thinking of a Glock.

The M&P uses a solid stainless steel subframe embedded in the polymer frame. Go to the website and actually research the pistol.

I was looking at a Para 1640... any knowledge of this particular model?

Yes. I shot one for a couple of years as my Limited gun, replacing the P-14 (I wanted the extra capacity). If you want a new, double-stack 1911 in MA and cannot afford an SVI, Para is what you want.

I am in the process of joining Hopkinton, and there are a few shooters there on Wed.

An excellent way to see what others are shooting and why. Don't forget the Chinese dinner afterwards!

 

[JPO]

Scrivener,

I had a field stripped M&P in my hand and it looked like it have four sheetmetal tabs for the frame rails. I will have to take a closer look next time. Thanks.

Of all the Fantastic Plastic guns I do like the M&P the best.

 

[Mike-Mike]

Scrivener,

I had a field stripped M&P in my hand and it looked like it have four sheetmetal tabs for the frame rails. I will have to take a closer look next time. Thanks.

Of all the Fantastic Plastic guns I do like the M&P the best.

Oh stop it. They are solid and hardened all the way through. You may have been looking at the wear marks.

 

[Scrivener]

Oh stop it. They are solid and hardened all the way through. You may have been looking at the wear marks.

Correct. As a visit to the website - in other words, actual research - would have shown.

That said, my recommendation for the mythical Best All-Around First Centerfire Handgun is (drum roll, please):

A Ruger or S&W .357 w/a 4" barrel (heavy barrel, if available) and target sights.

Why? Because it is exceedingly versatile, allowing the user to drop in cheap lead .38's for practice; HBWC .38's for Bullseye-type target shooting; RNFP lead, jacketed or plated .38's for steel and action pistol events; and full-house 125 grain magnum JHP's for the HD role.

Name an auto that versatile!

 

[JPO]

My memory is not great, but I did remember the configuration of the frame rails correctly. In this article http://www.shootingtimes.com/handgun_reviews/mp_080806/index1.html are some excellent photos of the four tabs I was talking about.

Research will continue...

 

[BOBKATT]

Name an auto that versatile!

A decent 1911 will do all of that and in my opinion, better. It just won't have the cold hard reliability of a revolver and it will be much more expensive.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

have read some things about wear on the aluminium frames, and springs.

It is rare, but Aluminum frames can crack after a number of years of use if they are shot heavily (tens of thousands of full power rounds). If this happens on an S&W you can use their lifetime warrantee. Sig provides good service but if you are substantially past the warrantee period, you will probably not be offered a replacement frame or gun - but they may offer you a deal on a new one.

 

[Scrivener]

My memory is not great, but I did remember the configuration of the frame rails correctly. In this article http://www.shootingtimes.com/handgun_reviews/mp_080806/index1.html are some excellent photos of the four tabs I was talking about.

Which photos and article you clearly failed to grasp the significance of....

From YOUR cited article:

The slide reciprocates on four stainless-steel rails. Many of you are probably saying, "What's the big deal? That's how most polymer pistols operate." Which makes you both right and wrong. First, unlike many polymer-frame pistols the rails are not imbedded in the frame, instead the forward pair are integral to the frame-mounted locking block while the rear are part of the steel sear housing.

The photos clearly show these features. No "sheetmetal tabs" there.

Go here: http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/...1&storeId=10001&catalogId=10001&content=40302

 

[terraformer]

My memory is not great, but I did remember the configuration of the frame rails correctly. In this article http://www.shootingtimes.com/handgun_reviews/mp_080806/index1.html are some excellent photos of the four tabs I was talking about.

Research will continue...

That is a common design type among other "plastic" guns such as HK, Glock, FN, et al; I put some bore butter on those "tabs" after cleaning the gun and rack the slide a few times to get the grease spread out and that is it.

I think what was meant above (or at least as I read it) was it is not like there are four pieces of metal sticking out of the plastic and nothing else. Those tabs are really just un-finished/worn finish parts of the overall chassis. "Plastic" guns are just as safe, sturdy and capable as any other firearm. If enough energy went through the handle to require a large metal frame (such as with a revolver design), the benefits of hte semi-auto would be nill. It is not just a magazine that makes semis so beneficial. Their design makes them far easier to shoot, which is lost of the moonbats who focus on "evil" reloading capabilities.

EDIT: Also, those tabs are really guides, most of the force is localized between the breach located at the base of the barrel, which is locked to the slide, and the slide itself. After firing, the slide unlocks from the barrel and the bulk of the force that does not get used to propel the bullet is directed at the slide spring. Those guides just make sure everything goes in the right direction.

 

[drgrant]

I have read some things about wear on the aluninium frames, and springs. Springs are cheap but frames are not. I think that a little loving care and good polishing and lubrication will go a long way.

A Sig alloy frame is good for many many many thousands of rounds. You will burn up the guns cost by like 20+ times in ammo before you have to even think about replacing it. (It might be higher than that- I've heard numerous accounts of P228s and P226s with 100K+ round counts. )

Worrying about a gun's frame wearing out is not something I even think about.... modern firearms just don't wear out that often, and more than likely the gun will live longer than you or I will.

-Mike

 

[PistolPete]

The Para P16-40 is a good choice for your purposes. Many of the components on the Paras will need to be changed with use.

 

[JPO]

Thanks to everyone for all the great feedback. I think my needs are much more toward the sporting uses of the weapon and less along the lines of CCW so the larger frames are fine.

I come from a machining background and like machined from billet stuff because it is what I know. I also ride a motorcycle and I have hardcoat alluminum sprockets which transfer over 130 HP and move a 700 pound package down the road pretty quick.

The revolver would be a great multi purpose gun, and I had'nt given it much thought since I was looking at action shooting.

 

[Scrivener]

The revolver would be a great multi purpose gun, and I hadn't given it much thought since I was looking at action shooting.

And a revolver precludes you from action shooting HOW?

USPSA, IDPA, steel and pins all have revolver divisions.

 

[Mike-Mike]

!

 

[JPO]

I don't have anything against revolvers, except when they spit lead back in my face. The majority of things I have read here and on the IDPA, USPSA websites and from other sources talk about pistols, not wheel guns. I'm sure there are divisions for them but I am not interested in them.

I am not a complete noob, I have had rimfire guns for years. I want someting with a little more authority and can do a number of things.

 

[PistolPete]

THe problem with the revolver divisions is there usually are only a few shooters in the division. I would recommend shooting either limited, limited 10, production, or single stack. If the gun is more towards the competition side then any of the guns I mentioned plus the P16.40 would be a great choice.

Pete

 

[Scrivener]

I am not a complete noob, I have had rimfire guns for years. I want someting with a little more authority and [that] can do a number of things.

Did you even READ my post?

IF so, name one semi, in any centerfire caliber, that can do all those things that a .357 revolver can.