Forbidden Knowledge: Become an SOT dealer to own a machine gun?

Two catches, as far as I understand:

1. You need a letter from a law enforcement agency that is interested in buying a MG before you can buy a dealer sample from a manufacturer.

2. When your SOT is up for renewal in three years, you will need to show that you're using the license to run a real business. If you let the license expire, you don't get to keep the dealer samples: they must be sold to another dealer or surrendered to the government.

Sorry.
 
Nothing secret nor forbidden about it. Now that I have moved to a free state, I have a FFL and an SOT. As an SOT, you need a demonstration letter from a police department requesting a demo of a particular machine gun. With that, the SOT can then buy a "dealer sample" and keep it as long as they maintain their FFL and SOT. By the way, the SOT is $500 ever year in addition to the FFL fees.

The dealer samples can only be sold to other SOTs with a demo letter

It is required that FFLs do sell guns as a business. An inactive FFL will have its license revoked when audited. In order to get and FFL, you must be in a location with proper zoning. Residences are fine, as long as they are zoned for either retail or manufacturing. The state must allow class 3 for a dealer to get an SOT. As a previous slave to Rhode Island, I was not allowed.
 
Do I have to promise to sell the MG to a LEO department in order to get the demo letter?
What is the legitimate reason for this demo letter?
Are you suppose to be selling MG's to agencies?
Could you not just sell them to agencies through Gun Broker?

I'm all ears!
 
Reptile said:
Do I have to promise to sell the MG to a LEO department in order to get the demo letter?
What is the legitimate reason for this demo letter?
Are you suppose to be selling MG's to agencies?
Could you not just sell them to agencies through Gun Broker?

I'm all ears!
Click to expand...

No, you do NOT have to sell it to the PD. You only have to demo it. If they want to buy, you can keep the sample and sell them another. You can keep it as long as you maintain your ffl/SOT
The only people who can buy new machine guns are military and police department. The only reason a SOT can buy is to demo for police, hence, the letter.
You don't have to sell, you just have to demo.
Actually the SOT never touches the guns sold to PDs. The order is made from the PD to the SOT, the SOT orders from dealer/manufacture and the guns are send direct to the PD.

With an SOT, you can buy and sell pre-86 machine guns. The SOT also allows purchase/sale of SBRs and suppressors.

If your FFL is for manufacturing, you can also make your own :) Unfortunately, manufactures have to register for ITAR and pay $2500 a year. I have heard that in certain instances and FFL can be exempted for ITAR, but I have not seen any reliable info as to how.
 
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"If your FFL is for manufacturing, you can also make your own :)"

Are you saying that if I have a manufacturers license I can make my own machine gun?
 
99.9% sure that the answer is yes. I did not go that route because of the annual $2500 ITAR registration.
 
"If your FFL is for manufacturing, you can also make your own :)"

Are you saying that if I have a manufacturers license I can make my own machine gun?


----
Edit:

You answered the question in your edit.

I found this on another site:

ARFCOM

"5150rob

In MA you need a "License to Possess a Machine Gun" and in order to get one you need to be either a "Bonafide collector (CLEO's interpretation of what that is) or you need to be a "Certified Firearms Instructor" recognized by the MA Criminal Justice Training council. This license is called a "Green Card" in MA.

I speak from experience because I got mine about 2 years ago and it was a battle. Most Chiefs (not all) dont like to issue them. I am a Firearms Instructor and a Collector and I still had to work at it for about a month before my Chief would budge. Basically if you are not a certifed FI its up to your Chief to make the interpretation if he considers you a "Bona Fide Collector"

This is EXACTLY the case in MA. Years ago it was a little easier to get the "Green Card" but these days CLEOs are a little less likely to give them out. Some MA Chiefs will make you get a C&R license prior to prove you are a collector. Mine did not.

Your best bet is to do what I did. Set up an appointment with your CLEO and meet with him and expain your intentions on why you want your GreenCard (License To Possess A Machine Gun) and tell him its for collectors purposes. When and if he says, No just keep at it for a few months. If your lucky he will issue it to you and if not.... sorry to say your are out of luck in MA for getting MGs.

If he does give it to you, then you can buy a MG and start the transfer process EXACTLY the same way that everyone else does. But your MA dealer will need to see your Green Card and the ATF will need a copy sent along with your F4 ATF transfer paperwork too because they also check state laws as well and if they see that your state (MA) requires a special license and MA does, and you dont have a copy included, then they will not approve it.
Again, I dont know much about anything (my Wife will testify to that. ) and I will admit that, but I went through the ringer 2 years ago to get mine and I know EXACTLY what is involved in getting your MA "License to possess a Machine Gun."
Good luck and let me know of any help I can be to you in this process.
Rob"
 
Reptile said:
"If your FFL is for manufacturing, you can also make your own :)"

Are you saying that if I have a manufacturers license I can make my own machine gun?


----
Edit:

You answered the question in your edit.

I found this on another site:

ARFCOM

"5150rob

In MA you need a "License to Possess a Machine Gun" and in order to get one you need to be either a "Bonafide collector (CLEO's interpretation of what that is) or you need to be a "Certified Firearms Instructor" recognized by the MA Criminal Justice Training council. This license is called a "Green Card" in MA.

I speak from experience because I got mine about 2 years ago and it was a battle. Most Chiefs (not all) dont like to issue them. I am a Firearms Instructor and a Collector and I still had to work at it for about a month before my Chief would budge. Basically if you are not a certifed FI its up to your Chief to make the interpretation if he considers you a "Bona Fide Collector"

This is EXACTLY the case in MA. Years ago it was a little easier to get the "Green Card" but these days CLEOs are a little less likely to give them out. Some MA Chiefs will make you get a C&R license prior to prove you are a collector. Mine did not.

Your best bet is to do what I did. Set up an appointment with your CLEO and meet with him and expain your intentions on why you want your GreenCard (License To Possess A Machine Gun) and tell him its for collectors purposes. When and if he says, No just keep at it for a few months. If your lucky he will issue it to you and if not.... sorry to say your are out of luck in MA for getting MGs.

If he does give it to you, then you can buy a MG and start the transfer process EXACTLY the same way that everyone else does. But your MA dealer will need to see your Green Card and the ATF will need a copy sent along with your F4 ATF transfer paperwork too because they also check state laws as well and if they see that your state (MA) requires a special license and MA does, and you dont have a copy included, then they will not approve it.
Again, I dont know much about anything (my Wife will testify to that. ) and I will admit that, but I went through the ringer 2 years ago to get mine and I know EXACTLY what is involved in getting your MA "License to possess a Machine Gun."
Good luck and let me know of any help I can be to you in this process.
Rob"
Click to expand...


True, but as an SOT I can buy a full auto sample for $1500. Pre 86s are $20-25,000. My sample will never increase in value since only other SOTs with a law letter can buy it. A pre-86 may go up if you can find people to pay that much.
 
Davidk said:
True, but as an SOT I can buy a full auto sample for $1500. Pre 86s are $20-25,000
Click to expand...

If I can in fact get a MG license in Mass (from my Chief) - I guess all I need is a FFL and from there jump to a Class 3 SOT?
 
i don't think that not need a MA MG license as a dealer. My application required that I send a copy of my application to the CLEO, but he did not need to sign it.
pm for my phone number if you want to talk
 
Reptile said:
If I can in fact get a MG license in Mass (from my Chief) - I guess all I need is a FFL and from there jump to a Class 3 SOT?
Click to expand...

'All you need is a FFL'.

I mean, yeah sure - it depends where in MA you are, and if you're zoned appropriately etc. Like it's been said before. I also think similar, if not the same, is covered in the NFA section. I could be wrong.
 
Gillham said:
'All you need is a FFL'.

I mean, yeah sure - it depends where in MA you are, and if you're zoned appropriately etc. Like it's been said before. I also think similar, if not the same, is covered in the NFA section. I could be wrong.
Click to expand...

You need an SOT also, which you can apply for after you get your FFL. The SOT costs $500 every year.
 
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=288949

It says on the forum above:

If you have a FFL 07(manufacturer) (you need light industrial zoning) you can get a Class 2 SOT (manufacturer).

With the Class 2 SOT you DO NOT NEED A DEMO LETTER to make a machine gun.

The ATF realized that people get such licenses to get toys and for tax evasion. Therefore prepare to be legit and do sales to other dealers.

QUESTION:

If you have a FFL 07 and a SOT Class 2- Do you also need a MG license issued by your CLEO? In Massachusetts.
 
I could have bought a brand new M4 on agency letterhead a long time ago. A Chief signed the letter, I could have plunked down $750 and had a LEO MG. The reason I didn't was that it would not be 'my' gun, it technically belonged to the agency and I'd have to give it up when I retired. I can only imagine the crapstorm if it got stolen or lost.

It was not worth the headache to have a gun I couldn't afford to shoot.
 
Couldn't you just get a 07 and build a full auto with out a letter... Ak's are stupid easy to build fa. Just need to drill one more hole and have the correct lower rail. Ar is allmost as easy.

I thought the sot is mainly to save on tax stamps ? Pay 500$ and year and build as many as you want .

Don't have to really sell any thing . your doing r&d trying to come up with a new design to sell to a big company .

Correct me if I'm wrong .

I know in mass you need a green card even if your a 07.
 
warwickben said:
Couldn't you just get a 07 and build a full auto with out a letter... Ak's are stupid easy to build fa. Just need to drill one more hole and have the correct lower rail. Ar is allmost as easy.

I thought the sot is mainly to save on tax stamps ? Pay 500$ and year and build as many as you want .

Don't have to really sell any thing . your doing r&d trying to come up with a new design to sell to a big company .

Correct me if I'm wrong .

I know in mass you need a green card even if your a 07.
Click to expand...
Your post says it all. Just be sure that you keep paying the SOT and make sure that you are kicking in more than what you are saving in taxes. Don't worry about the Itar till you manufacture and sell in volume. Jack.
 
one-eyed Jack said:
Your post says it all. Just be sure that you keep paying the SOT and make sure that you are kicking in more than what you are saving in taxes. Don't worry about the Itar till you manufacture and sell in volume. Jack.
Click to expand...

What do you mean licking in more then what you are saving?

Do you need to have a sot to build a mg for "r&d"? Or can you just get a stamp?
I'm still confused about the sot . I thought it was mainly so you could build nfa with out paying for each stamp.
 
warwickben said:
What do you mean licking in more then what you are saving?

Do you need to have a sot to build a mg for "r&d"? Or can you just get a stamp?
I'm still confused about the sot . I thought it was mainly so you could build nfa with out paying for each stamp.
Click to expand...

The SOT costs $500 a year. NFA stamps cost $200 once.
 
Davidk said:
The SOT costs $500 a year. NFA stamps cost $200 once.
Click to expand...

Thats what I'm confused about.

Say I get my 07 and I only plan to make 1 can and assemble one fa ak.
Can I just pay 400$ once and give them up when / if I get rid of the 07.

Or
do I have to pay for a sot each year to retain the mg/can till I decide to give up the sot/FFl 07.

That's the one thing I'm confused about.

Granted For the cost of the sot year after year. More fun toys you make for your self works out to be a better deal vs paying for a transferable .

Edit
After jacks post I can see why just paying the sot is better idea. Staying under the radar etc .


I've been working on getting my shop rezoned and I mainly want to get my 07 so I can work on ideas and if they work out try to sell my idea to be mass produced .
 
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I'm just combining info and adding some new info. If I'm wrong I'm sure Jack will correct me.


FFL 01 and 03 SOT - 03 allows for buying and selling of NFA firearms
FFL 07 and 02 SOT - 02 SOT allows for the manufacture, buying, and selling

Cost is $1000 a year paid every July 1st. However, if you sell under $500,000 the fee is $500 a year.

$500 a year ends up being cheaper than the $200 NFA fee when you buy 3 or more. If you are only doing this for yourself it can be seen at Tax Evasion/Fraud. Not to worry, just don't go doing things without intent for profit.


02 SOT allows you to manufacture Machine Guns without a CLEO letter. 01 can only obtain NFA firearms from transfers, so and 01 and 07 require CLEO letters when buying from another SOT.

You will need a machine gun license to possess machine guns in MA. The SOT only covers buying, selling, and (if 07) manufacturing. Not possession.

There is a part of the ATF FFL Guidelines handbook that states you do not need an 03 FFL if you have an 07 (this is obvious). So this may help you convince your CLEO you should not need to spend money on a C&R when you have your 01 or 07. Or it may do nothing to quote the ATF in this circumstance.


The only way to legally own suppressors in MA is buy having an 07 FFL and 02 SOT. This is essential the same license Colt, S&W, and others have. So you have the same legal powers, minus millions of dollars and hundreds of engineers.


Sole proprietors, when going out of business/relinquishing FFL/SOT, can add NFA items to their personal inventory without needing to do anything. They CANNOT add post sample machine guns as you need to maintain an FFL to posses. They need to be either transferred to another SOT or given to the ATF to destruction when getting rid of your SOT/FFL.

Corporations/LLC's have other rules. NFA items (except post sample MG's) have to be transferred via a form 4 like a normal non licensee.
 
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Reptile said:
I have stumbled upon some forbidden knowledge that may be known to some NES'ers.
If you get office space you can get a FFL 1.
If you have a FFL 1 you can get an Class 3 SOT.
With a Class 3 SOT, you can buy new machine guns.

Did I just reveal forbidden knowledge? [shocked]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Occupational_Taxpayers
Click to expand...


There is no hidden knowledge. If you're an 07 you can make whatever machineguns you want. You might not necessarily be able to get a transfer on something (unless its a pre-86 DS, or you got a sample letter, or its a full blown rape pre-86 transferable, etc. ) but you can damn well build whatever you want, the caveat being that if you relinquish your 07, then you gotta either sell the stuff to other 07s or destroy it.

The whole thing is not worth doing unless you're a manufacturer. In MA this also gets you around the suppressor ban, too.

-Mike
 
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Gman021 said:
I'm just combining info and adding some new info. If I'm wrong I'm sure Jack will correct me.


FFL 01 and 03 SOT - 03 allows for buying and selling of NFA firearms
FFL 07 and 02 SOT - 02 SOT allows for the manufacture, buying, and selling

Cost is $1000 a year paid every July 1st. However, if you sell under $500,000 the fee is $500 a year.

$500 a year ends up being cheaper than the $200 NFA fee when you buy 3 or more. If you are only doing this for yourself it can be seen at Tax Evasion/Fraud. Not to worry, just don't go doing things without intent for profit.
Click to expand...

It's not $500 a year, it's $500 plus all the other crap such as rent and other expenses. So you're probably looking at a few grand a year in most cases, unless you're already lucky enough to sit on property where an 07 will get approved.

Also, you have to keep your 07 hot if you want to keep the goodies around. Release the 07 and it all goes away except for things like Pre-86 DS, Pre-86 transferables, other less controlled stuff (SBR, etc).

-Mike
 
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drgrant said:
It's not $500 a year, it's $500 plus all the other crap such as rent and other expenses. So you're probably looking at a few grand a year in most cases, unless you're already lucky enough to sit on property where an 07 will get approved.

Also, you have to keep your 07 hot if you want to keep the goodies around. Release the 07 and it all goes away except for things like Pre-86 DS, Pre-86 transferables, other less controlled stuff (SBR, etc).

-Mike
Click to expand...

I was referring to the license cost only. Of course rent, electricity, internet, taxes, etc factor in.
 

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