Garand doubles/triples. Bump-fire?

[coachjpg]

The gun was an old CMP Garand, little fired. It spent decades in a safe. It was fine offhand. I got an occasional double from sitting, and many doubles and a few triples from prone.

The RO most familiar with the Garand removed and inspected the trigger group. There was no wear and nothing broken. His diagnosis was that I was bump-firing.

How should I modify my technique to avoid bump-firing? I had the usual leather sling, cinched tight. The gun was tight into my shoulder. I'm an old offensive tackle, so there's a lot of meat between the butt and my bones.

I shoot pistol mostly, timed events shooting at steel targets, so I'm used to working the trigger quickly. I was not doing this with the Garand. I was focusing on a long, slow trigger pull.

When I cleaned the gun, I spent some time with the trigger group, trying to find a trigger position where I could get the hammer to cock and fire without moving the trigger. I couldn't find such a position. So clearly there is some dynamic between the recoil and my trigger technique that's moving the trigger in the right way to double and/or triple.

I'd appreciate any advice on how to cure this problem.

Thanks in advance,
-jpg

 

[shanef]

Easy check...
- make sure safe and clear
- cycle bolt and let bolt come forward - so now hammer is cocked...
- engage safety
- try to pull trigger (* hammer should NOT fall *)
- dis-engage safety
- pull trigger and HOLD (* do not release *)
- manually cycle bold (* do not pull all the way back so that follower locks bolt back but enough that hammer is reset *)
- check and see if hammer falls

You will have to totally disassemble trigger assembly to see if parts are worn... Parts can be worn or something is getting stuck in the trigger group....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmXX2k2Oh-k

 

[bill o]

Did you try an exaggerated follow through, keeping the trigger pinned back after firing? If it still doubled you could rule out the RO's diagnosis.

It sounds far-fetched that you're unintentionally bump firing such a mild recoiling rifle.

 

[coachjpg]

Tried this a few dozen times. With the trigger back, the hammer does not fall until I first release the trigger & then pull it again. As one would expect, I get a distinct click when I release the trigger, as the hammer falls from the interrupter onto the sear. (Are those the right terms?) Then the hammer drops when I pull the trigger.

Easy check...
- make sure safe and clear
- cycle bolt and let bolt come forward - so now hammer is cocked...
- engage safety
- try to pull trigger (* hammer should NOT fall *)
- dis-engage safety
- pull trigger and HOLD (* do not release *)
- manually cycle bold (* do not pull all the way back so that follower locks bolt back but enough that hammer is reset *)
- check and see if hammer falls

You will have to totally disassemble trigger assembly to see if parts are worn... Parts can be worn or something is getting stuck in the trigger group....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmXX2k2Oh-k

 

[coachjpg]

Yes, I tried that. With a long, slow trigger pull it doubled or tripled before I even thought about releasing the trigger.

I'm with you on "far-fetched". Though the fact that it happens most in prone and not at all offhand does seem to indicate that my resistance to recoil is a factor. Maybe. I am a lot bigger than most, so maybe I stop the gun's movement during recoil more abruptly than most.

I gave it a thorough cleaning and lube. I'll take it to the range and try to get a reproducible problem that I can take to a gunsmith.

Is there a Garand wizard in MetroWest Boston?

Did you try an exaggerated follow through, keeping the trigger pinned back after firing? If it still doubled you could rule out the RO's diagnosis.

It sounds far-fetched that you're unintentionally bump firing such a mild recoiling rifle.

 

[EddieCoyle]

Try a slip-on recoil pad and see if the problem persists.

 

[shanef]

If not the trigger group then check your bolt and make sure the firing pin is not getting stuck... If needed, disassemble the bolt as well...

 

[coachjpg]

The firing pin moved freely when I had it apart for cleaning and lubrication.

If not the trigger group then check your bolt and make sure the firing pin is not getting stuck... If needed, disassemble the bolt as well...

 

[coachjpg]

Will do. Good idea.

Try a slip-on recoil pad and see if the problem persists.

 

[milktree]

Try a slip-on recoil pad and see if the problem persists.

Wouldn't this exaggerate any bump-fire effects of "lots of meat between the butt and bones"?

 

[milktree]

If not the trigger group then check your bolt and make sure the firing pin is not getting stuck... If needed, disassemble the bolt as well...

The Garand actively and positively retracts the firing pin as the bolt unlocks, so unless something is *really* worn out, this isn't it.

 

[PatMcD]

Milking the trigger will result in doubles with the M1 and M14.

 

[coachjpg]

It doesn't look worn to me, but this is the only Garand I've ever disassembled.

 

[rlee]

If you examine rounds that feed properly and don't slam fire, are there indentations in the primer?

 

[vellnueve]

I think your sear is worn.

 

[coachjpg]

Milking the trigger will result in doubles with the M1 and M14.

I suspect this is the crux of my problem, but how do I solve it? I shoot a lot of pistol, where I use a long, slow straight-back trigger pull until I get the surprise break. I used the same trigger technique on the Garand. I never had a chance to even think about releasing the trigger before it doubled or tripled. I never even had a chance to start my follow-through either. I just hung on and controlled the muzzle until it stopped.

I'm thinking that while my trigger finger was still executing the long, slow, straight-back pull, the rifle fired, and its recoil & bouncing off my shoulder caused it to move back and forth while my trigger finger remained mostly still. When standing, the rifle just moved straight back and my shoulder absorbed the recoil -- no doubles. While prone, strapped in tightly, my shoulder acted more like a spring & shoved the rifle forward immediately after recoil -- doubles and triples.

Am I holding the rifle too tightly into my shoulder? Not tightly enough? Gripping too hard with the trigger hand? Not hard enough? My sling hand just holds the barrel up. I don't use that hand to pull the barrel into my shoulder, though the sling surely does that.

It's been years since I gave any thought to trigger control. I focus all my attention on the front sight and all the stuff necessary to control it. The trigger manipulation has been automatic for a long time. Clearly I need to revisit that.

Thanks in advance for any advice.

 

[coachjpg]

If you examine rounds that feed properly and don't slam fire, are there indentations in the primer?

I'll look for differences in the brass next time I take it to the range. I didn't separate the brass this time. I was trying to shoot a match. Not a score to write home about.

 

[coachjpg]

I think your sear is worn.

It still has a finish on it. Parkerized, maybe? It's not bright metal. The Garand expert at the CMP match said nothing was worn or broken. I guess I'll take it to a gunsmith. If this were a 1911 I wouldn't be so clueless...

 

[Dan S]

What Pat means, your long slow pull is allowing the recoil to bump your finger into firing multiple rounds. A marksmanship armorer told me about this years ago. Just pull the trigger through firmly so your finger is really holding the trigger to the rear.

 

[PatMcD]

What Pat means, your long slow pull is allowing the recoil to bump your finger into firing multiple rounds. A marksmanship armorer told me about this years ago. Just pull the trigger through firmly so your finger is really holding the trigger to the rear.

Yes. You need to develope a more "deliberate" trigger squeeze. Pull the first stage, hold it, then break the second stage when you have your sight alignment.

 

[coachjpg]

Thanks folks. It never occurred to me that the trigger pull I've used on pistols for decades would bump-fire a Garand. I signed up for an NRA Rifle course so I can get some in-person instruction.

 

[cant hit anything]

what kind of ammo are you using.military grade or commercial grade.

 

[coachjpg]

M2 ball from CMP

 

[vellnueve]

It shouldn't be that easy to bump-fire a Garand. I still believe he has worn parts. Some so-called experts are nothing of the sort - have an actual gunsmith check it out.

 

[coachjpg]

BTSDOG hooked me up with a new trigger group, and that solved my problem. Thanks BTSDOG!!

Comparing the two, the angles are different on the rear trigger surface that contacts the hammer. They clearly engage very differently.

The old one still had the finish on the mating surfaces. If it was worn, someone refinished it after it became worn.

So, where should I send my defective trigger group to get it fixed?

Thanks,
-jpg

 

[PatMcD]

I would probably just install a new trigger and maybe a hammer.

 

[coachjpg]

Doesn't the trigger/hammer/sear require fitting by a qualified gunsmith? It would on a 1911...

 

[PatMcD]

Doesn't the trigger/hammer/sear require fitting by a qualified gunsmith? It would on a 1911...

Not at all. Poke out a couple pins and put in new parts, then a quick safety check. There is one trick to getting the pins out and back in easily. A quick google search would probably find a video.
Here's a decent one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZTTGXXpnBQ
It's shows an M14/M1A trigger group, but it's the same for the M1.