Holding at bay versus kidnapping

I agree HC. However if it's something that is borderline and you are doing the right thing, just do the right thing and prevent the a**h*** from leaving.
 
If by "weapon" the OP meant "firearm", and there were no other witnesses, the 2nd guy would have one between the eyes (probably before he had a chance to either shit his pants or drop his weapon).

Who knows if he's got a BUG or decides to go for the discarded weapon.
 
jdubois said:
I couldn't find any "Assualt with a deadly weapon" in the MGL, only "Assault and battery with a dangerous weapon".
Click to expand...

Assault is a misdemeanor
Assault with a dangerous weapon IS a felony.

I know it seems like I am splitting hairs here but when it comes to giving an accurate answer regarding the law you have to split hairs.
 
So, if you see someone shoot, stab, rape, or kidnap someone, you can citizen's arrest. Otherwise, hands off?

So, can I citizen's arrest Roger Clemens for perjury?
 
vellnueve said:
So, if you see someone shoot, stab, rape, or kidnap someone, you can citizen's arrest. Otherwise, hands off?

So, can I citizen's arrest Roger Clemens for perjury?
Click to expand...

If you saw him inject himself or get injected with any illegal drugs, yes. [grin]
 
derek said:
Ok, since Half Cocked is apparently "half cocked" [wink] I'll re-write the OP.



Is that better HC? [grin]
Click to expand...

I like it!! Much better young jedi!!!

I would still always recommend some sort of verbal commands to the "BG's" though......it helps to protect you!!

FWIW..the way the original OP wrote his scenario there may not have been any crime committed.

Guns drawn does not infer being pointed at you....it could simply mean unholstered and down at ones side!!

I would still rather see the wording "gun pointed at me" "Knife waved at me in threatening manner" etc...... instead of "pulled a gun" or "drawn gun" I know it is semantics but it makes a difference!!
 
Half Cocked said:
Assault is a misdemeanor
Assault with a dangerous weapon IS a felony.

I know it seems like I am splitting hairs here but when it comes to giving an accurate answer regarding the law you have to split hairs.
Click to expand...


A shod foot is a dangerous weapon.

The OP is an unrealistic TV scenario.

If two guys draw weapons on me (or most people here) and there's time to shoot one, there's time to shoot two. Nobody's going to stop in between to check. If you think the cops would, then you've never read about a cop shootout.

Like Derek said, empty the mag, then assess.

HC, are you one of those "shoot them in the leg" people?
 
Half Cocked said:
I was simply making a recommendation...not saying it is a requirement. The police do not HAVE to either but again it is strongly recommended and makes a lot of sense.[grin]
Click to expand...

IMO if you pull a gun on someone you have made the decision, "I am willing to die right now for what I am about to do". It's pretty cut and dry for me.
[wink]

But like I said before, I'm an a**h***, I've seen a few thugs behind bars before. If a gun or knife is out, it's go time. [grin]
 
EddieCoyle said:
A shod foot is a dangerous weapon.

The OP is an unrealistic TV scenario.

If two guys draw weapons on me (or most people here) and there's time to shoot one, there's time to shoot two. Nobody's going to stop in between to check. If you think the cops would, then you've never read about a cop shootout.

Like Derek said, empty the mag, then assess.

HC, are you one of those "shoot them in the leg" people?
Click to expand...


"Shoot them in the leg" people....[rofl]

Are you kidding me....absolutely not!!!

I had issues with the way the original OP was written from a legal standpoint.

In Derek's scenario which was much more detailed I have no problems with the use of deadly force on the "BG"
 
derek said:
IMO if you pull a gun on someone you have made the decision, "I am willing to die right now for what I am about to do". It's pretty cut and dry for me.
[wink]

But like I said before, I'm an a**h***, I've seen a few thugs behind bars before. If a gun or knife is out, it's go time. [grin]
Click to expand...


Derek...the main reasons for giving commands is to assist you with any potential witnesses. It is not necessarily to "justify" the deadly force. It is nice to have witnesses that say..."I did not see what happened...but before I heard the gunshots I heard someone yelling to put the gun down or I will shoot..."

Instead of having a bunch of witnesses that say " I did not see anything...I just heard the gunshots"

It is simply a tool to assist in corroboration of your statement.[wink]
 
Half Cocked said:
It is nice to have witnesses that say..."I did not see what happened...but before I heard the gunshots I heard someone yelling to put the gun down or I will shoot..."

Instead of having a bunch of witnesses that say " I did not see anything...I just heard the gunshots"

It is simply a tool to assist in corroboration of your statement.[wink]
Click to expand...

I know and which is why I am now carrying around a tape recorder so all I have to do is hit play and squeeze my trigger. [smile]
 
It's still unrealistic in this case though.

The OP stated that the BGs had weapons drawn. If I were to pull out my CCW and want to say, "PUT DOWN THAT WEAPON OR I WILL SHOOT!!"

It would end up as "PUT gurgle on my own blood......"

If two thugs have their guns on me and God willing I can draw and shoot, it'll be "BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG mag dropping on the ground CLICK! STOP OR I"LL...BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG"
 
Eddie, I think you are still missing my point with the OP.

The OP said only that guns were drawn...not that the guns were pointed at him. There is a difference!

You wrote: If two thugs have their guns on me and God willing I can draw and shoot, it'll be "BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG mag dropping on the ground CLICK! STOP OR I"LL...BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG"

You changed the facts and scenario. Apples to oranges.

That is my only point!!

I also never stated that one had to wait to finish giving commands prior to using deadly force.

I only stated that it is a good practice to get in the habit of training to use a command when drawing ones gun to use in a deadly force situation as it may help SAVE YOUR ASS if you end up in front of a jury and there are witnesses testifying. I would never recommend waiting to be shot in order to give commands!

just my .02...take it for what it is worth.
 
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Half Cocked said:
Most people do not know the difference between a misdemeanor and a felony.
Click to expand...

Which is why I asked the question. In this scenario, which I feel a multiple target scenario is more likely then a 1 .v. 1 mugging, I wanted to know my options in to regards to the other threats.

To answer your questions about the original post, I was implying, I thought it was obvious, that it was a starting out as a mugging. In the case of my attractive wife who works in Boston now, it could be much worse. I see weapons and I feel my life is in jeopardy.

If a death occurs in the commission of a crime, I thought all those involved in the committing of the crime were guilty of manslaughter. That's the felony I think perps 2+ are guilty of once I have taken out the closest threat in tactical priority.

-= chuck
 
Half Cocked said:
but before I heard the gunshots I heard someone yelling to put the gun down or I will shoot..."
Click to expand...

That implies I, as the non-BG in the scenario, have drawn my weapon when NOT in fear for my life. Because if I'm in fear for my life, there is no time to shout. If witnesses hear me and look at me, since I'm the one generating the attention, they see my weapon and maybe not the BGs. I am liable for arrest. Just ask the poor guy in Hyannis who simply brushed his coat back when he got surrounded by punks on Main St.. The SOBs called the cops on HIM!

-= chuck
 
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Half Cocked said:
Guns drawn does not infer being pointed at you....it could simply mean unholstered and down at ones side!!
Click to expand...

Only if you've never had one "drawn" on you... [thinking]

Half Cocked said:
I would still always recommend some sort of verbal commands to the "BG's" though......it helps to protect you!!
Click to expand...

In most cases, there isn't time. Cops do it cause they're going to try and make an arrest. I'm not going to do that. I'm going to defend my life.
 
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M1911 said:
He isn't guilty of anything. He hasn't been charged yet, let alone convicted.
Click to expand...

Contrary to the PC mantra in the introduction to "Cops," "guilty" and "convicted" are not synonymous.

If you stipulate the facts given in the hypo, the BG is guilty.
 
Chuck, unfortunately nothing is obvious and when it comes to giving advice, even though IANAL, I do not want to imply anything.

I hope you understand what I have been saying. I am not criticizing you but a couple of words can change a scenario tremendously.

Your question is genuine but maybe needs to be worded differently.
 
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Jaxon said:
Only if you've never had one "drawn" on you... [thinking]



In most cases, there isn't time. Cops do it cause they're going to try and make an arrest. I'm not going to do that. I'm going to defend my life.
Click to expand...


I have had guns drawn on me thank you...multiple times.

I never stated that you HAD to do it. I just stated that I would recommend training in it as you are drawing your firearm.

I already mentioned why the police do it...it is done for the same reasons.

Again TIFWIW. Your life is primary.
 
jdubois said:
Well, I'll show my ignorance here, what's the difference between felony and misdemeanor? I thought felony was a crime punishable by more than a year in jail, but I'm happy to be schooled in the matter.
Click to expand...

State law (Massachusetts): 2-1/2 years. (G. L. ch. 274, sec. 1). Federal law: 1 year.
 
Chuck said:
That implies I, as the non-BG in the scenario, have drawn my weapon when NOT in fear for my life. Because if I'm in fear for my life, there is not time to shout. If witness hear me and look at, since I'm the one generated the attention, they see my weapon and maybe not the BGs. I am not liable for arrest. Just ask the poor guy in Hyannis or simply brushed his coat back when he got surrounded by punks on Main St.. The SOBs called the cops on HIM!

-= chuck
Click to expand...

My recommendation is that you give commands as part of your process of drawing your gun. This is just a recommendation for people to consider. That is all I am saying.

It would not matter if the witnesses saw the BG guns they would be recovered from the scene.

Even in the most obvious case of self defense you may still be arrested..which is why I am giving you the advice of the commands.

Having the cops called on you for flashing your piece is a lot different from using deadly force!
 

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