Horrible experience…I almost went to jail!!!

[Len-2A Training]

Re: Firearm's Knowledge

I had to do everything to outright threaten by officers to go qualify to offer free coupons to Dunkin Donuts (just kidding on that one). Most hated to go to the range and had little knowledge on firearm's. A few had an interest as a hobby and usually wound up as instructors. To be fair, NJ did not make it very easy to have firearms as a hobby. Outdoor ranges were almost non-existent. Indoor ranges restricted the type of firearm and its use. Many would not allow any type of combat targets unless it was a authorized department qualification.

As group of firearms instructors was forced to carve a range out of a piece of property given to use off of the NJ Turnpike in a working landfill. At least the glow of the earth kept the range lit and the shooters warm!!! [roll]

Sounds a lot like what goes on around here.

When I was with the PD, they begged a local gun club to use their range for quals (for free of course). As a member of the same club I could NOT practice with targets at the same distances we used for qualification. We were NOT issued practice ammo. LEOs could not just "use the club ranges" unless it was a formal qualification event approved by the BOD. Since I'm a gun nut, I practiced anyway on my own nickle. The non-gun nut LEOs would never practice unless the chief paid them overtime (I have literally been told this by some officers) AND gave them practice ammo (never in the budget).

Eventually due to some BS issues with chief and town that shut down the ranges for a year + and cost >$20K in renovations before the town would allow a reopening, on advice of the club's attorney they made anyone wanting to use the property (non-member event) to sign an indemnification waiver and provide proof of $1Million liability insurance. MCJTC did sign this waiver and used the range for a few years. BC PD still uses the range monthly for their qualifications. The Town refused to do either and was thrown out. PD then had to qualify at the Raynham Town Dump (MCJTC), pay OT to officers to go down there (since they were some 20-30 minutes out of town in case of a call). The dump was in use, wide open (no shade) and no bathrooms for miles. Finally I was told that the dump was filled in and closed down. PD came back to the same club begging to use it. I had quit the club before they gave in and I'll bet that the town isn't responsible in case of a round leaving the property (there is a house literally at the top of the berm on the outdoor range). They now qualify with handguns AND CAR15s on this range (which is not built for hi-power rifle). If a club member were to bring an AR15 up there they would be thrown out of the club!!

 

[rscalzo]

PD Quals

We had a great working relationship with the bullseye club in our town. As a kid, they formed a Junior Rifle Club under the guides of the old DCM. We learned safe gun handling and went on to enter local matchs. I shot with the son of Austim Behlert for a year or so. Austin was starting out as a gunsmith and came to the 2700 matches the club held. We would have over 200 shooters over a two day period. The juniors would pull targets and help out.

The club bent over backwards to help out the town going as far as making changes to the range to help our type of shooting. Eventually the club was forced out as the property was right on a prime piece of real estate just outside of NYC. They turned it into a enviromental center and a park. Firearms did not fit into their plans.

The new range is just north of Newark Airport on the NJ Turnpike. The landfill is still very active. You have to watch out for dumptrucks and bulldozers which at times come over the top of the berm. But all in all, it was built into a pretty decent range for combat shooting. Through mutual efforts of 12 town's firearms instructors, the range hasd a 270 degree berm over thirty feet tall. Max distence is 100 yards but restrictions have to be placed on the shooting for that distance. We conned paving companies into coming there with their excess loads and lying it out on the firing points. They were happy as they had a place to dump it and we got nicely covered firing points. Except for no covered firing points, the shooters stand out in the weather. But as you say, they get overtime for it through a contract provision put in place a few years ago. Most actually have some fun when the more inventive instructors come up with senarios that push their skills. Each town has bought some action style targets and pooled their resourses. Shooting at moving targets can really depress those that thing they are decent shooters!!!

The best part is that after four of five years of building up the facility, the county has announced they are building a golf club on the site! Maybe we can get the golfers to hold up out Q targets and save the cost of target frames. [shock]

 

[MarkM]

Len, not sure if this is of use to you, but from topglock.com I got:

Europe, Africa, Middle East:
Glock Ges.m.b.H.
P.O. Box 50 A-2232
Deutsch-Wagram, Austria
Tel. (43) 2247-2460
Fax. (43) 2247-2460/12

Mark,

Thanks but I don't want to try "dialogging" with an international mailing address.

I really want an Email address of either a top official (to hand down to someone) or a Tech Supt person so that when one answer leads to the next question we can have a continuum of discussion and documentation.

Going thru the US and Austrian Mail system can take weeks on each piece of correspondence, may get answered by multiple people without referring to prior responses (I've had this with Tech Supt in the US on some tech supt web-chat deals), etc.

I understand that Len, I meant you could try calling them (a lot of Austrians speak English) and asking for an email address

 

[massnee]

Update on my problem…

I spoke to the gun shop owner today. He was very understanding. I feared that he would be defensive. The problem with glock mags in Massachusetts is that at this time it seems no one is sure what is pre-ban.

A question I would be interested in seeing answered is whether or not the AG has ever prosecuted an individual for a high cap violation? The answer may be…no. However, here is the problem as I see it. I carry my Glock 27 for the purpose of using it. If I ever had to use my glock it would be very detrimental to give the prosecutor the opportunity to wack me with a high cap violation. In light of this…I am going to be very careful about my high cap mags.

Tomorrow I am going into the shop to swap my beautiful 15 round G-22 mag for an old worn out non-metal lined one. The store in question has given me satisfactory service.

 

[Len-2A Training]

The answer is NO, nobody (according to Ron Glidden) has to date (I last asked him this question about 8 months ago) been prosecuted for high-cap mag violations. Usually it is an add-on charge type of deal to other charges. Pile the charges on, get the person to agree to a plea bargain and you don't prosecute them on that particular charge (or most/all the gun charges).

If you ever had to defend yourself in MA, you will be charged with manslaughter with a probable 90% certainty. Add-on mag charges are insignificant at that point. Even if you win, you won't have enough money left to buy a 9mm value pack at Wal-Mart!

 

[rscalzo]

Hi-Cap Mags.

If anything I would store them safely at home and purchase additional legal in Mass. magazines if you intend on carrying the firearm.

The only time I ever traded in magazines was to a law enforcement dealer for S&W who upgraded my ten rounders to fifteen rounders (after submission of the usual letter on departmental letterhead). [lol]

 

[mark056]

Len,

I think you are correct overall in your assessment. Many if not most LEOs are not very gun-savvy, and those that are usually suppport the gun rights of private citizens, at least in my experience.

Now sooner or later, somebody is going to get some grant money and give a class on illegal magazines, this will perk interest in at least a few LEOs to enforce the magazine bans, or the ATFE will set up some kind of sting operation at a gun show (more plausible).

Then sadly, there are people like a certain state police lieutenant I know, now a bit long in the tooth, who actually looks up arcane and not regularly enforced laws, just so he can arrest somebody. Yep folks, there are still LEO's in the 21st Century who enforce laws passed in the 18th or 19 Centuries. Sooner or later, the light is going to go on and he will realize that he can bust somebody for an illegal magazine. I am sure that he is not the only one out there, either.

So far, all illegal mag violations have been lesser included charges, but someday, somewhere somebody is going to get arrested on the primary charge of having an illegal magazine in his or her posession. It will be rare, probably the odds are better that you would get struck by lighting before you got arrested for that offense, but you have to ask yourself, do you want to be the one ?

Mark

 

[rscalzo]

Enforcement

I agree on the gun show sting. We still had several statutes on the books covering the riding and handling of horses in the town limits. Dammed thing was that I never saw a horse go through town so I rarely, if ever got a change to write one of those violations up. Besides, getting the horse into the back seat of a Crown Vic was tough, not to mention what they left behind. [lol]

 

[JonJ]

Re: Enforcement

Besides, getting the horse into the back seat of a Crown Vic was tough, not to mention what they left behind. [lol]

I'd try [twisted] What's another trip "upstairs"?!?!

 

[SKS Ray]

As a pre ban Glock owner this is an issue that i've thought about a lot. I'm guessing there are many here that have high cap gun show mags, even 33 rounders for a Kel Tec, but still use a standard 10 rounder in their carry Glocks. The mere fact that people in a neighboring state have more rights when it comes to gun ownership than we as Mass residents have angers me, let alone the fact that the "ban" never saw sunset here.
All the more reason for me to practice and become a more proficient shooter in case I should ever have to use my carry gun to defend myself or my families lives with only 10 rounds.

 

[boomerang]

Well...
According to that picture, I have 2 post ban Hi-cap mags that came with my Glock 22 I bought from **** ******* about a month ago. #6 follower also.

They are certainly not the type of company that would knowingly ever sell something illegal, so, can anybody conclusively clarify this?

*Edited. I changed my mind about announcing the shop's name.

 

[FalArAk]

Well...
According to that picture, I have 2 post ban Hi-cap mags that came with my Glock 22 I bought from **** ******* about a month ago. #6 follower also.

They are certainly not the type of company that would knowingly ever sell something illegal, so, can anybody conclusively clarify this?

*Edited. I changed my mind about announcing the shop's name.

There are only 3 rules pertaining to NEShooters.com

<EDITED OUT BY LenS-Mod> Even if it wasn't intended, what was stated here implied that a certain shop sold illegal mags. See my response in my own post down below. Thanks.

Seriously though,what shop sold you post ban mags? Maybe we should stay away from them.You wouldn't want anyone going to jail by buying stuff from a dealer that doesn't know/care enough to check the status of high cap mags.

 

[Lynne]

massnee hun - save yourself the indigestion and worry. Buy a couple pre-ban mags, or get a few 10 rounders for it.

 

[Len-2A Training]

I know that more than one shop has called their distributor multiple times and re-questioned them about the mags. Specifically telling the distributor that the mags look new and suspiciously like "no ban" mags.

In each case the distributor (and this involved more than one distributor) assured the dealer that the mags were indeed pre-ban (and new!).

The real answer is "we don't know"! If you read Patrick Sweeney's book on Glocks, you will find that all the info out there is inconclusive about pre-ban Glock mags!

 

[boomerang]

I know that more than one shop has called their distributor multiple times and re-questioned them about the mags.

I'd say that's a reasonable effort. I'm not worried about it if the people who know most about it can't say for sure. I suppose the only thing the authorities can reliably go by is the firearm and not the magazine. It seems if the firearm is preban, then the mag is too.

 

[Len-2A Training]

I know that more than one shop has called their distributor multiple times and re-questioned them about the mags.

I'd say that's a reasonable effort. I'm not worried about it if the people who know most about it can't say for sure. I suppose the only thing the authorities can reliably go by is the firearm and not the magazine. It seems if the firearm is preban, then the mag is too.

VERY BAD ASSUMPTION!!

As Mark points out there are a few MSP Troopers out there and other local officers who seem to look to pick nits.

The only thing we know is that it is relatively easy to figure out a pre-ban gun from a "no ban" gun, but only because of the S/Ns! Mags are a big can of worms, with no easy solution (other than buy only 10 rd mags for everything).

 

[boomerang]

How can they prove that a crime has been committed?

In reality, I suppose you're absolutely right that it's much better to be safe about these matters and just not use them.

 

[Boston-Irish]

I called GOAL about the "restricted LEO only" mags and how they are marked with a date 9.13.94. They reffered me to "§ 131M. Assault weapon or large capacity feeding device not lawfully possessed on September 13, 1994; sale, transfer or possession; punishment
No person shall sell, offer for sale, transfer or possess an assault weapon or a large capacity feeding device that was not otherwise lawfully possessed on September 13, 1994." and said since the mags are dated on the 13th and not later I should be ok.
I decided not to purchase and stay with the ten rounders.
Does anyone know what the story is? I have never known GOAL to be too far off base.

 

[Lynne]

Does anyone know what the story is? I have never known GOAL to be too far off base.

If GOAL said it's okay, you can count on it. If it was Nancy you spoke to, I've never known her to be wrong when it comes to the law. She's a walking fountain of info.

 

[massnee]

I really do appreciate all the imput you all have given concerning my mag problems. I believe some good information has been shared in this thread. All Mass Glock owners will need to make a decision as to what mags they are willing to use and purchase.

I did, however, want to share with you a conversation I had with another gun shop today. I had never been there before. The owner was a nice man. I asked him how he knew the pre-ban mags he wanted to sell me were pre-ban? His answer was that he believed that it does not matter what mags you use. He told me that the only thing the law is concerned about is the gun itself. Needless to say, he did not know what he was talking about. So the moral of the story is be very aware when you purchase mags. In the end I do not believe that we will be able to get off by telling the judge that we were just following so and so's advice.