How do you develop a new load?

[dwarven1]

I have a friend with a 1905 Mannlicher. Uses Mannlicher 7.63x21 ammo, with an 85 gr bullet at 1000 fps.

Now, since we know the dimensions of the cartridge, weight of the bullet and the speed of the bullet... how does one go about reverse-engineering the load?

Are there tables or equations from the powder manufacturers relating charge weight, bullet weight and bullet velocity? Does a commercial reloader (like your dad, Nickle) use a pressure test barrel on the new loads first?

Just wondering.

 

[Nickle]

I have a friend with a 1905 Mannlicher. Uses Mannlicher 7.63x21 ammo, with an 85 gr bullet at 1000 fps.

Now, since we know the dimensions of the cartridge, weight of the bullet and the speed of the bullet... how does one go about reverse-engineering the load?

Actually basic data can be found in a few books, Cartridge Conversions being one of them. And yes, they have the 7.63x21 Mannlicher listed.

Are there tables or equations from the powder manufacturers relating charge weight, bullet weight and bullet velocity? Does a commercial reloader (like your dad, Nickle) use a pressure test barrel on the new loads first?

Just wondering.

Most small commercial reloaders/manufacturers don't have test barrels.

The most important thing for a reloader to have is a good library. The bullet companies, reloading equipment compaines and powder companies publish loading manuals, some go into great detail, some don't.

Advanced reloading should only be done by an experienced reloader, and only in strong firearms. Advanced reloading entails watching the signs of pressure when making up new loads. It's something you learn over time, and can be difficult to explain.

I've been making my own ammo for almost 40 years (I obviously started young), and have been involved in my father's business for many years. I still rely on manuals, and pay strict attention to their max loads, and work up to them SLOWLY, watching for pressure signs.

Ross, let your friend know that my father's rules on ammo are simple.

First priority is safety. It has to be safe.

Second priority is function, the gun must function. If this can;t be done safely, then you either live with less function, or don't shoot the gun.

Third is accuracy, and this falls under nice to have. If it can be made accurate, great. The first two priorities take precendence over accuracy.

The reason my father needed the gun in the case of the 7.63x21 was to make sure the ammo fit and functioned. He doesn't make hot loads for anybody, not even me. And the ammo he sells he openly says is on the light side a little. This actually helps accuracy, in most cases. There's only a couple of calibers that actually like max loads.

 

[TonyD]

Very well stated, Nickle.

 

[dwarven1]

Thanks for the info, Nickle. I hadn't realized that there was actually data out there on such an obsolete load! I've send the link to this thread to my friend.

Ross

 

[Nickle]

Well, it's not as old as 50-70, 50-110, 40-65, 40-82 or 45-90 among others, though there's far more data for them.

 

[TonyD]

Is the 7.63x21 black powder?

 

[Nickle]

No, smokeless. Originally used in the 1905 Mannlicher self loading pistol. Somewhat a military round. Didn't last, though.

http://www.gunsworld.com/gun_pistols/Mannlicher_M1900_1905.htm

 

[TonyD]

Got it, thanks.

 

[Nickle]

I take it you were thinking 21 grains of (black) powder? That'd be a disaster in this case. It wouldn't fit, anyways. Small case.

 

[Chris]

Wanna se some scarey loads?

Click Here

I especially like the 510 grain at 1700 fps giving 1700 3269 ft lbs of energy. OUCH!!!!

 

[Nickle]

What ONE of my assigned military weapons does (a REAL .50 caliber):

The U.S. M33 .50 BMG military load uses a 668 grain FMJ-BT bullet at a muzzle velocity (MV) of 2910 fps with muzzle energy (ME) of 12,550 ft. lbs. The U.S. M2 military load uses a 720 grain FMJ-BT bullet at a MV of 2810 fps and ME of 12,600 ft. lbs.

 

[TonyD]

I take it you were thinking 21 grains of (black) powder? That'd be a disaster in this case. It wouldn't fit, anyways. Small case.

I was, but I didn't realize this was a pistol round.

 

[Nickle]

Most metric cartridges do NOT use the amount of powder as part of the deignation.

Usually the x?? is the length of the case in millimeters.

Examples: 7.63x21 is a .30 caliber 21mm long. 7.62x51 (308) is 51mm long. 7.62x51R (and there's 2 cartridges that qualify, 30-30 and 307 Win) is 51mm long, with a rim.

The old American way had the second part as the amount of (normally) black powder.

50-70, 50 cal 70 gr powder.
45-90, 45 cal 90 gr powder.

But, there's exceptions here. 30-30, the powder is SMOKELESS. 30-06 is actually .30-'06 (for 1906).

Nothing like adding confusion.

 

[TonyD]

I know that. My brain just skipped for a moment.

 

[Nickle]

I know that. My brain just skipped for a moment.

I also knew that, you're an experienced reloader. Some folks DIDN'T know that, it was directed to them. Telling you about it is like "preaching to the choir". No apologies needed.

 

[crfriend]

I have a friend with a 1905 Mannlicher. Uses Mannlicher 7.63x21 ammo, with an 85 gr bullet at 1000 fps.

Now, since we know the dimensions of the cartridge, weight of the bullet and the speed of the bullet... how does one go about reverse-engineering the load?

Actually basic data can be found in a few books, Cartridge Conversions being one of them. And yes, they have the 7.63x21 Mannlicher listed.

Greetings, all. I'm the chap that Ross was referring to who has the Mannlicher.

Nickle -- Is "Cartridge Conversions" likely to be available in public libraries, or does it need to be purchased somewhere? Out of print, or in print?

The most important thing for a reloader to have is a good library.

That seems to be the case in most endeavours, doesn't it!

Ross, let your friend know that my father's rules on ammo are simple.

First priority is safety. It has to be safe.

That's an absolute in my opinion. If I cannot be sure that it won't do things that I don't want it to, or anticipate it doing, I want no part of it. But that's just common sense.

The reason my father needed the gun in the case of the 7.63x21 was to make sure the ammo fit and functioned. He doesn't make hot loads for anybody, not even me.

Bless his heart on the latter part. My main concern was how to transport the piece to his location. Ross informs me that shouldn't be an issue as Vermont's firearms laws are rather more realistic than the ones here in Massachusetts.

The sad thing is that whilst I really adore the Mannlicher as a beautiful piece, I may never be able to actually shoot it accurately -- my hands are too big, and the grip on the 1905 is remarkably small; it actually fits my wife's hand better than mine! The grips actually follow the frame quite closely, so I don't think that larger grips would solve the problem. (I've got another "ancient" gun that *does* fit nicely, and I'm going to light that one up when I can get back into my cabinet.) (I like "old stuff".)

For grins for those that have the time, I took a few shots of the piece whilst I was working out how to disassemble it and the results are available at:

http://starfish.osfn.org/~crfriend/firearms/Mannlicher/

Feedback on the above is welcomed.

 

[Lynne]

That is a beautiful piece.

Now don't laugh guys, but it kind of reminds me of a swan. Long, lean and graceful.

 

[dwarven1]

Greetings, all. I'm the chap that Ross was referring to who has the Mannlicher.

Hey, Carl! You finally stopped lurking! Welcome aboard.

The sad thing is that whilst I really adore the Mannlicher as a beautiful piece, I may never be able to actually shoot it accurately -- my hands are too big, and the grip on the 1905 is remarkably small; it actually fits my wife's hand better than mine!

Never know until you actually try shootin' it, Carl!

(I've got another "ancient" gun that *does* fit nicely,

Is that the Steyr or the P-38?

For grins for those that have the time, I took a few shots of the piece whilst I was working out how to disassemble it and the results are available at

Gee... someone nag you into putting that on the web, Carl? [lol] OK, seriously, Carl, I'm glad you got a login and decided to post.

Ross

 

[dwarven1]

That is a beautiful piece.

Carl's got a few nice pieces... we took his P-38 out to the range one time. Shot pretty nice for a 60+ year old gun!

Rossbb

 

[crfriend]

Greetings, all. I'm the chap that Ross was referring to who has the Mannlicher.

Hey, Carl! You finally stopped lurking! Welcome aboard.

Thanks!

Never know until you actually try shootin' it, Carl!

I can tell just by hefting it. I can't get a comfortable grip on it that will allow me to properly work it.

(I've got another "ancient" gun that *does* fit nicely, [...]

Is that the Steyr or the P-38?

Both, actually, but I was thinking about the Steyr when I wrote the above. The P-38 doesn't reall count as "ancient" as it's a WW II era piece; the Steyr is WW I vintage.

Gee... someone nag you into putting [the Mannlicher page] on the web, Carl? [lol]

It had the best shot of the gun that I've got at the moment, and I figured that some of the folks here might like to take a look at what was getting talked about (if they didn't already have a photo in their libraries, that is).

In any event, I'm not convinced that the gun was ever fired since before my father bought it in the late 50s; the protective grease is still in place on all the internal works.

 

[Nickle]

Actually basic data can be found in a few books, Cartridge Conversions being one of them. And yes, they have the 7.63x21 Mannlicher listed.

Nickle -- Is "Cartridge Conversions" likely to be available in public libraries, or does it need to be purchased somewhere? Out of print, or in print?

Amazon has an updated version. Make sure the author is John Donnelley.

Then you'll have the right book.

 

[Marcus99]

Bumping this very old thread because I'm working up a load for 7.63mannlicher. I have the brass/dies/32acp 100gr bullets, now I just need data. I have found a few loads for 86gr bullets, and one for 100gr but I am thinking of starting at 2.5gr of bullseye with a 100gr lead bullet and working up from there. Anyone else done this cartridge before?

 

[mac1911]

For me dependent on the firearm I will generally start on the min side of data....for cast boolits I roam around cast boolits.com and see who is doing what with in known data and will start there. Idont have any data in my books for 7.63mann

 

[crazymikie]

QuickLoad software has the ability to this sort of thing. I like it a lot and recommend it if you load different cartridges. I have a few oddballs and it's come in very handy.

 

[Marcus99]

Thanks for the feedback. I started working up from 2.5gr of Bullseye at .1gr increments. I went to make sure my first ten rds would load and go figure the truncated cone .32acp bullets won't fit in the magwell of a Steyr Mannlicher M1905 regardless of the OAL. So now I need to find some 85gr RN .32 or .308 cal bullets.

 

[Nickle]

The book I mentioned quotes 3.2 gr of Unique and an 85 gr bullet.

I can't suggest trying to figure a load from that, and unfortunately, I don't have my data on the caliber handy at the moment.

But, I'll try to see what I can do during the day.

 

[Marcus99]

The book I mentioned quotes 3.2 gr of Unique and an 85 gr bullet.

I can't suggest trying to figure a load from that, and unfortunately, I don't have my data on the caliber handy at the moment.

But, I'll try to see what I can do during the day.

Thanks for the reply Nickle. I didn't really expect any of the original posters from 2005 to still be around but I appreciate your response.

I bought some Hornady 71gr FMJ round nose bullets. They are the same profile as the original 86gr but weight less so I will have a little more room to work up a load, hopefully less recoil and less of a beating on the old gun. I will start very low at 2.5gr of Bullseye and work up from there.

I only have 49pcs of brass (I had 50 but lost the first to a stuck casing in the CH4D resizing die - it is a steel non-carbide die and I did not lube it as I have never worked with a noncarbide pistol die and it never occured to me that the custom resizing die may be steel).

 

[Nickle]

That should work.