If you are a CCW holder that is made by the police

[JimConway]

If you are a CCW holder that is made by the police, here is some info ny a highly esteemed police instructor.

"PREFACE: Don't shoot the messenger, this an FYI post with a little bit of my dry humor tossed in. I am not overtly being a dick but a few things need to be said, I'm not one for diplomacy.

For those who are NOT cops, nor ever held gen-U-ine bad guys at gunpoint, been shot at/shot, dealt with armed people on a regular basis.
I'll start with the little statement I give the kids when in training, "Sit down, shut up, get back in your lane and listen, then learn....we'll chit-chat later". I am no SME on this, but I might have smidgen of experience that I would like to share.

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE think about some of things you say you want to do if you are ever "made" with your CCW and held at gunpoint by the Police. They are in control of the situation, yes really...you might not like it, in fact you will HATE it, but they control you for the interaction. Can I predict what cops might say or ask you to do?
No....we can play the "what if" game forever. Usually we apply a "Control and Cover", one Po-po does the verbal, another the covering.
They both involve guns. If the cover dude senses a weapon, he speaks up and orders you to do SOMETHING. Yes this can contradict the Control officer, many times one officer see's something the other does not.
These roles can switch, Shit happens.

What we teach. You have a gun in your hand, you don't comply with orders to drop it or in ANY way make a movement to hurt the cop/others/yourself, you get shot. There ya go. Simple. That is what is being taught to police, that is what to expect. Other Cops/Trainers, jump in if our stuff is contradictory to yours. A reasonable attempt is made for verbal control, game-on if you don't want to drop your $3K 1911. (balance out the cost of a funeral or a new refinish...) We are not counselors, mental health professionals or best bud's though we will fake it if needed.

Tidbit: Recall how fast you can shoot from low ready and concealed/holstered Cops know this too, hence the response.

Sidenote: I routinely get gigged during training because I push the verbal part to far and wind up in, or something close to, gunfights.
NOTE: I am NORMALLY far, far, far quicker to get hits than my "bad guy"
but I have been on the receiving end a few times.

Sidenote Part Deux: Monday morning quarterbacking, we use the term"Subjective" when reviewing cases and such. So, when we talk about the La CCW guy, we need to ponder what the dispatcher told the responding units. I'll jump in opine (guess!) something along the lines of "Please respond to an Armed irate shoplifter" . We know NOTHING about his CCW/Prior Service or the real situation, but we have a few of clues that stand out. The guy has a gun (not necessarily a crime, but is it an AK/Active shooter or a CCW?), is being a douchenozzle to SOMEONE
(could be a crime), and is committing a crime (why we do this!). We
know nothing other than this and respond accordingly. That's wrapped up....simple until something stupid happens and people get hurt.

My 2 cents on the missing video: It's not missing, it's being held by the DA or IA. If it is missing, I would expect some heads to roll."

This is the stark reality for a CCW holder that gets stopped

 

[Admin]

Who wrote that wonderful piece of "King Kong ain't got shit on me!"

 

[JimConway]

He is a friend and well respected. Enough said.

He allowed me to copy his post from another source,
intended for police officers that were discussing a well
publised police shooting of a CCW holder
with the condition that his name not be mentioned.

 

[glide]

This reads like it was written by a high-school drop out.

I think we certainly appreciate the intent, but to me, it was unreadable.

"game-on if you don't want to drop your $3K 1911" - Why would ANYONE advocate reaching for your CCW? Even if a cop tells me to 'drop my weapon' (which I'm pretty sure only happens in the movies), there is no way I am reaching for anything but the sky.

 

[terraformer]

So let me get this straight, non cops don't know jack, anyone on the objective end of a cops guns has to deal with confusing, contradictory and blatantly stupid statements from any number of officers and all the while any mistake is the guy on the objective ends fault.

How this, why don't you send this message to your buddy. A non cop who has half a brain knows a cop out from a tool who is too lazy to train properly to deal with law abiding citizens. The problem is on his end. If a gun is holstered, concealed and the person is not making "furtive movements" then he and his fat ass lazy buddies should keep their damned booger hooks of the bang switches and they should train properly to keep their mouthes shut and let ONE guy control the situation.

 

[ScottS]

He is a friend and well respected. Enough said.

He allowed me to copy his post from another source,
intended for police officers that were discussing a well
publised police shooting of a CCW holder
with the condition that his name not be mentioned.

Oh, he's well respected! OK, then. I'll look past the rambling inability to express a thought in a coherent sentence then.

Why didn't he just say: "If "made" (BTW, who outside the movies uses that term?) by the police while carrying a concealed weapon, follow their instructions exactly or you risk being shot."

Are people getting paid by the word, or what?

 

[glide]

If a gun is holstered, concealed and the person is not making "furtive movements" then he and his fat ass lazy buddies should keep their damned booger hooks of the bang switches.

This.

 

[Admin]

This is the stark reality for a CCW holder that gets stopped

This guy better pray to god the shit doesn't hit the fan.

 

[pjorg]

Why would ANYONE advocate reaching for your CCW? Even if a cop tells me to 'drop my weapon' (which I'm pretty sure only happens in the movies), there is no way I am reaching for anything but the sky.

I think he meant that if the police come upon you with a gun in your hand, and they tell you to drop it, then you should.

I guess that makes sense, but I don't really know how we went from "being made" as a CCW to where you suddenly have a gun in your hand. Anybody with a brain in their head does not reach for (much less unholster) their weapon in the presence of police in such a situation.

 

[TheRoland]

I'll jump in opine (guess!) something along the lines of "Please respond to an Armed irate shoplifter" . We know NOTHING about his CCW/Prior Service or the real situation, but we have a few of clues that stand out. The guy has a gun (not necessarily a crime, but is it an AK/Active shooter or a CCW?), is being a douchenozzle to SOMEONE
(could be a crime), and is committing a crime (why we do this!).

There's no need to guess. This audio is available. The dispatcher told the responding units he was destroying merchandise, acting irrationally, maybe on drugs, and a bunch of other things. The dispatch tape sounds like they're responding to all-but an active shooter. What we don't know is what the 911 call contained, to cause this.

I suspect this incident was the result of a perfect storm of mistakes and assumptions, and, when we have all the facts (if they actually come out after the inquest this week) we'll be well served by citizens and public servants figuring out what the mistakes were and how to prevent them.
We will not be well served by pretending this was all the decedent's fault.

EDIT: There was a thread where I linked and summarized what was known from leaked audio, etc, but the thread seems to be gone. Anyone know why it got axed? Degenerated into bickering?

 

[cekim]

So let me get this straight, non cops don't know jack, anyone on the objective end of a cops guns has to deal with confusing, contradictory and blatantly stupid statements from any number of officers and all the while any mistake is the guy on the objective ends fault.

How this, why don't you send this message to your buddy. A non cop who has half a brain knows a cop out from a tool who is too lazy to train properly to deal with law abiding citizens. The problem is on his end. If a gun is holstered, concealed and the person is not making "furtive movements" then he and his fat ass lazy buddies should keep their damned booger hooks of the bang switches and they should train properly to keep their mouthes shut and let ONE guy control the situation.

As much education as is required (and presently lacking) in the police force about how to deal with this - there is a genuine problem of information here that your average CCW'er may not have thought about or dealt with.

He is absolutely correct that the police responding to Costco - who should be charged and convicted IMO - could very well have been told all manner of terrible things on their way to the scene.

Even in the case that responding officers are told nothing, they have very little idea what to expect. They may be tired, pissed from a prior stop, getting divorced from their wife or just plain out of coffee.

Doesn't make it right, but underneath the bluster, there is truth there that all of us would be wise to understand.

When a cop draws his gun at you - you are no longer a good guy as far as he is concerned.

So, while we all go off to work within our communities to select Chiefs who understand the need for CCW education on the force, the cold hard reality is that if you don't wan to get shot, you need to understand the poor information and great power the other side is bringing to the table.

 

[Admin]

I think he meant that if the police come upon you with a gun in your hand, and they tell you to drop it, then you should.

I guess that makes sense, but I don't really know how we went from "being made" as a CCW to where you suddenly have a gun in your hand. Anybody with a brain in their head does not reach for (much less unholster) their weapon in the presence of police in such a situation.

Which is why I don't understand the purpose of the thread. Every single one of my friends carries concealed and they have for years. We all have been pulled over while the gun is secured on our hip. Not ONCE have I or any of my friends ever drawn our sidearms. I guess this thread is great if you have lost your mind and pull out your gun while a LEO is shouting to you that he has control of the situation and you better drop your $3000 carry piece.

 

[cekim]

I guess this thread is great if you have lost your mind and pull out your gun while a LEO is shouting to you that he has control of the situation and you better drop your $3000 carry piece.

I took it to be narrowly focused on the corner case that you're concealment is blown in a bad way.

You know, like shopping at Costco.

Or PD responding to your 911 call as you stand over the bleeding corpse in your home...

I didn't take anything from this to be dealing with the more common interaction with police where either your carry doesn't come up, or simply is not known that happen every day...

 

[Supermoto]

When a cop draws his gun at you - you are no longer a good guy as far as he is concerned.
.

If the cop points a gun at me when I am not an active threat, then he is no longer a good guy as far as I am concerned.

 

[cekim]

If the cop points a gun at me when I am not an active threat, then he is no longer a good guy as far as I am concerned.

Well, let's hope you find yourself a rare jury who knows about nullification despite the Judge, prosecutor, and defense attorney preventing them from hearing it and even the courts preventing people from distributing leaflets outside the court describing it.

In other words - you are gonna lose... In all but the most extreme circumstance - you lose the "reasonableness" test there...

Which is why it is so important that we not allow the usual government hiring practices to destroy the integrity of our police force as we have in so many places...

 

[Admin]

I took it to be narrowly focused on the corner case that you're concealment is blown in a bad way.

You know, like shopping at Costco.

Or PD responding to your 911 call as you stand over the bleeding corpse in your home...

I didn't take anything from this to be dealing with the more common interaction with police where either your carry doesn't come up, or simply is not known that happen every day...

The last sentence is pretty clear.

This is the stark reality for a CCW holder that gets stopped

If I'm ccw'ing, my weapon is what?

 

[Admin]

Well, let's hope you find yourself a rare jury who knows about nullification despite the Judge, prosecutor, and defense attorney preventing them from hearing it and even the courts preventing people from distributing leaflets outside the court describing it.

In other words - you are gonna lose... In all but the most extreme circumstance - you lose the "reasonableness" test there...

Which is why it is so important that we not allow the usual government hiring practices to destroy the integrity of our police force as we have in so many places...

Too late...

EEO

 

[terraformer]

Which is why I don't understand the purpose of the thread. Every single one of my friends carries concealed and they have for years. We all have been pulled over while the gun is secured on our hip. Not ONCE have I or any of my friends ever drawn our sidearms. I guess this thread is great if you have lost your mind and pull out your gun while a LEO is shouting to you that he has control of the situation and you better drop your $3000 carry piece.

Look at doobie. He walks around frickn' town with a OWB holster and a video camera. Video camera not withstanding, all of the cops he comes across deal with it without shooting him. They used the frickn' brains god gave 'em and evaluated the situation based on first hand knowledge. The tool quoted in the OP has decided he can make his job so much easier if he can act with impunity at any and all perceived threats without being responsible for verifying whether said threats are even remotely real much less actually criminal.

 

[ScottS]

Well, let's hope you find yourself a rare jury who knows about nullification despite the Judge, prosecutor, and defense attorney preventing them from hearing it and even the courts preventing people from distributing leaflets outside the court describing it.

In other words - you are gonna lose... In all but the most extreme circumstance - you lose the "reasonableness" test there...

Which is why it is so important that we not allow the usual government hiring practices to destroy the integrity of our police force as we have in so many places...

I think he said "he is no longer a good guy as far as I am concerned." not "therefore I am going to shoot him." You read in an awful lot.

 

[cekim]

I think he said "he is no longer a good guy as far as I am concerned." not "therefore I am going to shoot him." You read in an awful lot.

Yes I sure did, but let's look at what's gonna happen...

Either he plays nice and mars the finish on his $3000 1911
OR
He ignores the commands he's given and gets shot - dieing nobly for the honor of his gun
OR
Gee? What's that third option? I cannot imagine?

 

[M1911]

"game-on if you don't want to drop your $3K 1911" - Why would ANYONE advocate reaching for your CCW? Even if a cop tells me to 'drop my weapon' (which I'm pretty sure only happens in the movies), there is no way I am reaching for anything but the sky.

I think he is referring to a situation where you already have the gun in your hand (e.g., you are holding Mongo at gunpoint when the police arrive on scene).

 

[cekim]

The last sentence is pretty clear.



If I'm ccw'ing, my weapon is what?

Cozy? Warm? Awesome?



Again, I was taking the good and ignoring the bad. Author of that blather is a blow hard, but there are some nuggets of truth - that's all I was saying...

 

[M1911]

I think he said "he is no longer a good guy as far as I am concerned." not "therefore I am going to shoot him." You read in an awful lot.

I read in the very same thing cekim did.

 

[Admin]

I think he said "he is no longer a good guy as far as I am concerned." not "therefore I am going to shoot him." You read in an awful lot.

Don't let reading comprehension get in the way of a good argument.

 

[Admin]

I think he is referring to a situation where you already have the gun in your hand (e.g., you are holding Mongo at gunpoint when the police arrive on scene).

Even so, what idiot doesn't comply? Why does this LEO need to send a horribly written piece of garbage to educate .0001% of the ccw-ing population?

 

[M1911]

Even so, what idiot doesn't comply?

I've read more than one thread here on NES where some folks have said they would never drop their gun for reasons X, Y, and Z.

 

[pjorg]

Which is why I don't understand the purpose of the thread. Every single one of my friends carries concealed and they have for years. We all have been pulled over while the gun is secured on our hip. Not ONCE have I or any of my friends ever drawn our sidearms. I guess this thread is great if you have lost your mind and pull out your gun while a LEO is shouting to you that he has control of the situation and you better drop your $3000 carry piece.

Not to be inflammatory (seriously), but I read the whole thing with a grain of salt:

1. Appeal to authority ("highly esteemed police instructor")
2. The author obviously doesn't take it very seriously, since evidently no proofreading had been done, and
3. There is an implied insistence that what is taught to police is necessarily the "correct way to do it." Little (if any) credence is given to the notion that there might a problem with police training, and should be addressed.

So, thanks friend-of-JimConway, but I don't think your argument was very strong.

 

[Admin]

I've read more than one thread here on NES where some folks have said they would never drop their gun for reasons X, Y, and Z.

It's the internet. There are guys posting in the Survival forum posting about moving 30+ miles a day with a 120lb pack going undetected.

 

[Admin]

Not to be inflammatory (seriously), but I read the whole thing with a grain of salt:

1. Appeal to authority ("highly esteemed police instructor")
2. The author obviously doesn't take it very seriously, since evidently no proofreading had been done, and
3. There is an implied insistence that what is taught to police is necessarily the "correct way to do it." Little (if any) credence is given to the notion that there might a problem with police training, and should be addressed.

So, thanks friend-of-JimConway, but I don't think your argument was very strong.

I'm a jerk what else can I tell you?

 

[cekim]

call "time out", whip out your Droid X, and post a thread on NES about whether you should drop your weapon or not. hopefully with a livefeed.

Make sure and put "!URGENT" on the title so people know its urgent...