lowbuckbob
NES Member
Len - wasn't there a former Chief (I think from Paxton?) that was some sort of firearms law expert who asserted that active LEOs had to keep any high cap mags in the station prior to going home?
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Len - wasn't there a former Chief (I think from Paxton?) that was some sort of firearms law expert who asserted that active LEOs had to keep any high cap mags in the station prior to going home?
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I believe you are thinking of Glidden from Lee PD. I never heard any such statements from him, but am aware that some chiefs did pull that crap on their officers some years ago.
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I just posted links to an excellent 3 part series on LEOSA, well worth reading for those qualified.
I post legal stuff that is important in my instructor sub-forum as I can sticky and lock it so it doesn't get cluttered with garbage responses and thus anyone looking for info/facts doesn't have to wade thru 20 pages of trivial comments.
https://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/threads/338739-LEOSA
I post legal stuff that is important in my instructor sub-forum as I can sticky and lock it so it doesn't get cluttered with garbage responses and thus anyone looking for info/facts doesn't have to wade thru 20 pages of trivial comments.
https://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/threads/338739-LEOSA
Cap'n Mike
NES Member
Good article here on the Retired Officer Qualification process and other aspects of LEOSA
I copy and pasted it in case it disappears.
Understanding the LEOSA Qualification Process
We as law enforcement officers can do one thing very well: take something simple and complicate it. It isn't our fault, as we spent a career being careful in our investigations and arrests to make sure we crossed every "t" and dotted every "i."
LEOSA is a really simple law. But we have managed to take that simple law and complicate it because we believe that it is the right thing to do. It is important to keep some records and keep them accurately, but why should we keep records we do not need, or make things harder than they should be?
LEOSA has two segments. One is for active duty officers while traveling outside of their jurisdiction. The second section is for "Qualified Retired Law Enforcement Officers." I am going to concentrate on how an agency should handle the retired officer qualification, records keeping, and other issues involved in maintaining LEOSA rights for retired officers, as the active duty requirements are not confusing.
Issuing Credentials
One requirement of the law is that an officer must have credentials indicating he or she is a "Qualified Retired Law Enforcement Officer." The unfortunate aspect of this is that the law does not require an agency to issue the needed credentials. If your agency has chosen not to issue credentials, there isn't much you can do.
With that being said, there isn't liability to an agency who issues retired credentials, as the agency is not stating the retired officer is a good guy. It is merely a declaration of fact that the officer worked at the agency.
Agencies can create problems for themselves when they go beyond what the law requires. If an agency issues credentials and it wants to conduct background checks periodically on its retirees, the agency creates tremendous liability for itself by conducting follow-ups that are not required.
It is recommended that the language on the credentials be simple and straight-forward. Obviously the Qualified Retired Law Enforcement Officer's photo must appear and the agency's name and state. Language to the effect of:
"THIS IS TO CERTIFY __(Name)______ whose signature and photograph appear hereon, as a Qualified Retired Officer (Or Deputy Sheriff, Trooper, etc.) from the (Name of the department), who meets the definition of Qualified Retired Law Enforcement Officer, as provided in the Law Enforcement Officers Safety Act of 2004, as amended, and passed by the United States Congress."
The credential should also include the officer's and the sheriff's or chief's signature.
Again, this is a direct statement of fact and only what the law requires.
The law allows an agency to either issue a credential and qualification card as a combined card, or the cards can be separate. I highly recommend you only issue separate cards, one being the credential, the other card the proof of qualification. The retired officer must qualify once a year and so that card has a date. The credential does not have a date. Not to mention that the officer may move out of state and be qualifying under another state's protocol. When that happens having the cards combined is problematic.
Qualification
LEOSA requires that retired officers have proof they have qualified within the last year with the same "type" of firearm. "Type" is not defined in the LEOSA law; however, if you look up the definition in the same code section, it is defined as handgun, rifle, or shotgun.
Nowhere in the law does it say handgun, pistol, or revolver. It only says "firearm." This indicates that under LEOSA you can carry a firearm—not restricted to a handgun—of the same type you qualified with.
What type of course of fire should be utilized? The law states, "…been tested or otherwise found by the agency to meet the active duty standards for qualification in firearms training as established by the agency to carry a firearm of the same type as the concealed firearm…".
The phrase "the active duty standards for qualification" leaves it open for the agency to determine the appropriate course of fire. Many agencies have several courses of fire such as the uniformed duty course of fire, one for secondary/back-up guns, off-duty, and other situations.
Why not use the off-duty or back-up gun course of fire? As a retired officer you are no longer a law enforcement officer, you are a well-trained citizen being afforded a privilege by federal law. Why treat the retired officer's qualification as if they are still active duty? I would suggest you use an appropriate course of fire such as the active duty standard for off-duty firearms. Off-duty courses of fire are typically geared toward closer engagements and smaller sized firearms, which fits with a retired officer's situation.
If you are not able to qualify with the agency you retired from, then you can qualify under the protocol established by the state in which you live. If your state has not set up a protocol and your agency does not qualify its retired officers or you live in a different state now, the law says, "...or by a certified firearms instructor that is qualified to conduct a firearms qualification test for active duty officers within that State that indicates that the individual has, not less than 1 year before the date the individual is carrying the concealed firearm, been tested or otherwise found by the State or a certified firearms instructor that is qualified to conduct a firearms qualification test for active duty officers within that State to have met—"
In simple terms, any certified firearms instructor who can administer an active law enforcement qualification by state standards can qualify you in your state if a protocol has not been established.
If you qualify a retired officer you are merely administering a test, you are not training an active officer. You are the proctor (instructor) of the test (qualification); your job is to administer it and score the results. You are not incurring liability as long as that is all you are doing, as that is what the law requires. Agencies and instructors get into trouble when they want to do more such as providing instruction on shooting techniques or require the officers to qualify on multiple courses like decision making, "shoot-don't-shoot," or low light. The law requires a qualification "test," not tests.
If you are concerned about liability with the qualification consider this: When your state DMV gives you a driver's test and you pass, it issues you a driver's license. If you have an accident that is your fault, your state DMV cannot be sued because it administered a test that you passed and then gave you a license.
What should the qualification card look like? The law requires the qualification be within the last 12 months, so the date of the qualification is necessary. You may consider having the name of the agency, organization or state that it is issued under.
Although it should have the "type" of firearm that was used in the qualification, I would not have any more information, as it is not required by the law. This is where law enforcement gets wrapped around the axle by recording information that is not required by the law.
Many firearm instructors or ranking officers will say, "Well how do we know you are carrying the gun you qualified with?" My response is, "Who cares?" They don't work for you anymore and you are not responsible for them.
The law does not require that you carry the same firearm you qualified with, so do not make record of what the officer qualified with. The officer could qualify with a revolver and carry a semi-automatic, as it is the same "type" (a handgun) of firearm. If an officer is not carrying the gun he or she qualified with there is nothing you can do. The officer doesn't work for you anymore.
Think of the qualification card as a driver's license. The license doesn't restrict you to driving only the vehicle you drove during the test. It permits you to operate any vehicle of that class (type).
I copy and pasted it in case it disappears.
Understanding the LEOSA Qualification Process
We as law enforcement officers can do one thing very well: take something simple and complicate it. It isn't our fault, as we spent a career being careful in our investigations and arrests to make sure we crossed every "t" and dotted every "i."
LEOSA is a really simple law. But we have managed to take that simple law and complicate it because we believe that it is the right thing to do. It is important to keep some records and keep them accurately, but why should we keep records we do not need, or make things harder than they should be?
LEOSA has two segments. One is for active duty officers while traveling outside of their jurisdiction. The second section is for "Qualified Retired Law Enforcement Officers." I am going to concentrate on how an agency should handle the retired officer qualification, records keeping, and other issues involved in maintaining LEOSA rights for retired officers, as the active duty requirements are not confusing.
Issuing Credentials
One requirement of the law is that an officer must have credentials indicating he or she is a "Qualified Retired Law Enforcement Officer." The unfortunate aspect of this is that the law does not require an agency to issue the needed credentials. If your agency has chosen not to issue credentials, there isn't much you can do.
With that being said, there isn't liability to an agency who issues retired credentials, as the agency is not stating the retired officer is a good guy. It is merely a declaration of fact that the officer worked at the agency.
Agencies can create problems for themselves when they go beyond what the law requires. If an agency issues credentials and it wants to conduct background checks periodically on its retirees, the agency creates tremendous liability for itself by conducting follow-ups that are not required.
It is recommended that the language on the credentials be simple and straight-forward. Obviously the Qualified Retired Law Enforcement Officer's photo must appear and the agency's name and state. Language to the effect of:
"THIS IS TO CERTIFY __(Name)______ whose signature and photograph appear hereon, as a Qualified Retired Officer (Or Deputy Sheriff, Trooper, etc.) from the (Name of the department), who meets the definition of Qualified Retired Law Enforcement Officer, as provided in the Law Enforcement Officers Safety Act of 2004, as amended, and passed by the United States Congress."
The credential should also include the officer's and the sheriff's or chief's signature.
Again, this is a direct statement of fact and only what the law requires.
The law allows an agency to either issue a credential and qualification card as a combined card, or the cards can be separate. I highly recommend you only issue separate cards, one being the credential, the other card the proof of qualification. The retired officer must qualify once a year and so that card has a date. The credential does not have a date. Not to mention that the officer may move out of state and be qualifying under another state's protocol. When that happens having the cards combined is problematic.
Qualification
LEOSA requires that retired officers have proof they have qualified within the last year with the same "type" of firearm. "Type" is not defined in the LEOSA law; however, if you look up the definition in the same code section, it is defined as handgun, rifle, or shotgun.
Nowhere in the law does it say handgun, pistol, or revolver. It only says "firearm." This indicates that under LEOSA you can carry a firearm—not restricted to a handgun—of the same type you qualified with.
What type of course of fire should be utilized? The law states, "…been tested or otherwise found by the agency to meet the active duty standards for qualification in firearms training as established by the agency to carry a firearm of the same type as the concealed firearm…".
The phrase "the active duty standards for qualification" leaves it open for the agency to determine the appropriate course of fire. Many agencies have several courses of fire such as the uniformed duty course of fire, one for secondary/back-up guns, off-duty, and other situations.
Why not use the off-duty or back-up gun course of fire? As a retired officer you are no longer a law enforcement officer, you are a well-trained citizen being afforded a privilege by federal law. Why treat the retired officer's qualification as if they are still active duty? I would suggest you use an appropriate course of fire such as the active duty standard for off-duty firearms. Off-duty courses of fire are typically geared toward closer engagements and smaller sized firearms, which fits with a retired officer's situation.
If you are not able to qualify with the agency you retired from, then you can qualify under the protocol established by the state in which you live. If your state has not set up a protocol and your agency does not qualify its retired officers or you live in a different state now, the law says, "...or by a certified firearms instructor that is qualified to conduct a firearms qualification test for active duty officers within that State that indicates that the individual has, not less than 1 year before the date the individual is carrying the concealed firearm, been tested or otherwise found by the State or a certified firearms instructor that is qualified to conduct a firearms qualification test for active duty officers within that State to have met—"
In simple terms, any certified firearms instructor who can administer an active law enforcement qualification by state standards can qualify you in your state if a protocol has not been established.
If you qualify a retired officer you are merely administering a test, you are not training an active officer. You are the proctor (instructor) of the test (qualification); your job is to administer it and score the results. You are not incurring liability as long as that is all you are doing, as that is what the law requires. Agencies and instructors get into trouble when they want to do more such as providing instruction on shooting techniques or require the officers to qualify on multiple courses like decision making, "shoot-don't-shoot," or low light. The law requires a qualification "test," not tests.
If you are concerned about liability with the qualification consider this: When your state DMV gives you a driver's test and you pass, it issues you a driver's license. If you have an accident that is your fault, your state DMV cannot be sued because it administered a test that you passed and then gave you a license.
What should the qualification card look like? The law requires the qualification be within the last 12 months, so the date of the qualification is necessary. You may consider having the name of the agency, organization or state that it is issued under.
Although it should have the "type" of firearm that was used in the qualification, I would not have any more information, as it is not required by the law. This is where law enforcement gets wrapped around the axle by recording information that is not required by the law.
Many firearm instructors or ranking officers will say, "Well how do we know you are carrying the gun you qualified with?" My response is, "Who cares?" They don't work for you anymore and you are not responsible for them.
The law does not require that you carry the same firearm you qualified with, so do not make record of what the officer qualified with. The officer could qualify with a revolver and carry a semi-automatic, as it is the same "type" (a handgun) of firearm. If an officer is not carrying the gun he or she qualified with there is nothing you can do. The officer doesn't work for you anymore.
Think of the qualification card as a driver's license. The license doesn't restrict you to driving only the vehicle you drove during the test. It permits you to operate any vehicle of that class (type).
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MA makes it more complicated with illegal (violations of the LEOSA law) requirements.
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No, it requires specific LEOSA wording on the ID. Read the CMR for that info. It also requires contact info on the ID for the department that issued it.
AHM
NES Member
LOL. Some days it seems like most NES members are LEOSA complainants.
Hello. Are there any former LEO'S that are having issues within NH finding an agency to grant a LEOSA ID card, or allowing you to qualify under LEOSA Federal law? I have a total aggregate of over 10 years of combined LEO experience between Military Police, two departments in NH and one in Massachusetts.
The agency I worked the longest with (Manchester NH) won't allow me to have a retired or separated ID or qualify me through LEOSA without my total of 20 years tenure on that single department. This does not comply with the federal law.
I've contacted NH Police Standards and Training and they do not offer a retired/separated ID either.
Even if I were to find an agency to issue me a card indicating that I have over 10 years aggregate, no agency in NH would allow me to qualify annually on the range which is a pre-requisite to carry under the bill. As a matter of fact, the State Police are pro-actively asking private certified LEOSA instructors NOT TO CERTIFY LEOSA candidates until the SP can come to an agreement within the state as to how they will administer and enforce this.
This is not fair to those LEO'S such as myself that fit within the guidelines of having served enough aggregate time to carry under LEOSA, but do not have a path to comply with the requirements. President Obama's changes in the bill to allow 10 year aggregate separated LEO'S to qualify was an attempt to get more qualified people on the streets that are armed in the event of national emergencies and more.
Are others having similar problems in other states? What types of work around have you found?
The agency I worked the longest with (Manchester NH) won't allow me to have a retired or separated ID or qualify me through LEOSA without my total of 20 years tenure on that single department. This does not comply with the federal law.
I've contacted NH Police Standards and Training and they do not offer a retired/separated ID either.
Even if I were to find an agency to issue me a card indicating that I have over 10 years aggregate, no agency in NH would allow me to qualify annually on the range which is a pre-requisite to carry under the bill. As a matter of fact, the State Police are pro-actively asking private certified LEOSA instructors NOT TO CERTIFY LEOSA candidates until the SP can come to an agreement within the state as to how they will administer and enforce this.
This is not fair to those LEO'S such as myself that fit within the guidelines of having served enough aggregate time to carry under LEOSA, but do not have a path to comply with the requirements. President Obama's changes in the bill to allow 10 year aggregate separated LEO'S to qualify was an attempt to get more qualified people on the streets that are armed in the event of national emergencies and more.
Are others having similar problems in other states? What types of work around have you found?
KBCraig
NES Member
The SIG Academy conducts LEOSA certification, but that won't help you get a retiree ID card.
LEOSA doesn't require anything of state or local agencies, by design. They're not required to issue any retirement cards at all, let alone to someone who didn't retire from their department.
LEOSA doesn't require anything of state or local agencies, by design. They're not required to issue any retirement cards at all, let alone to someone who didn't retire from their department.
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This is a tough one. KBCraig is correct. Nothing in the Fed Law MANDATES that any department issue a retired ID.
A person's best chance is with the last department that they worked for. If they won't issue, unfortunately one is SOL.
Getting the annual cert in NH looks a bit onerous. I'll be in that boat shortly but I plan on getting my re-cert in MA before I lose my MA LTC due to having declared that I've moved later this Spring.
Many departments refuse to issue the proper credential or certify retirees as a matter of policy. Not good, but it is what it is.
