Long rambling discussion on .308 Battle Rifles

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Let’s talk 30 cal rifles.

Why?

Because I’m going to buy one very shortly, it’s on my mind, this is a gun forum and most of the time I can ramble on here without the bored looks I get from non-gun people.

So, here’s the deal. I have enough to purchase either:

1. M1A loaded model new or used depending
OR
2. A bolt-action tack driver (10FP, 700, FN etc) + Leupold Mark 2 +QR rings/base+ Harris Bi-pod.

What’s the problem you say? Sounds Great!

Well, it’s simple, I’m not too wealthy these days (I know, who is?) and thus it took me a couple of months to put together the roughly $1600 I have to spend on this. I have long lusted after both of these rifles (M1A and a nice target rifle in .308-I’ve vacillated between the actual model) but the truth is, what I really, really want right now is the target rifle. (Particularly because I have enough to buy all the parts at once and put it together – no waiting.)

However, given the Obama threat, AND the relative violence of the last few weeks, I feel that if I (or you, for that matter) want a semi-auto mil-pattern rifle, it’s now of never. At least it’s now or an outrageous price in the near future.

So, I’m going to purchase the M1A, and yes, I am very excited about it. But, inside, there’s this nagging feeling that what I really want is the target rifle. Sure, I’ll be thrilled to have the M1A, and in the absence of .Gov interference it would only come a few more guns down the line…I guess I’m just bent because I feel like I have to purchase this now to prevent sheepling hype from making it unobtanium. I have confidence that even the “tactical look” target rifles will be available for a while longer. However, I do not feel that way about mil pattern rifles.

Because I have your attention I’m going to take it a step further. I want a Full-Size battle rifle (I’ve got an AR already). My choices, as I see them are:
1. M1A
2. M1
3. FAL
4. G3 variants (HK, PTR, SAR etc)
5. AR pattern 308.

The M1 is well and good but not what I am looking for. We’ve had this conversation before. No need to go over it again. If you are an M1 devotee then God bless you, I simply am not. The FAL is an option. I wouldn’t waste my money on the angry beaver models (CAI) But, the DSA basic models are in my price range. Still, I’ve never been really impressed with the sub $2000 models. They seem awfully expensive for their performance. The G3’s are my favorite runners up. I can’t say enough good things about the construction and quality of the PTR’s I’ve fired. I’ve even had a go with an SAR that was pretty nice and the HK I tried was, frankly, no nicer (performance speaking) than the PTR with the Thompson Bbl. The only problem with the G3 is that, in my experience, they absolutely destroy the brass, obviating the opportunity to re-load which, on my budget, is a necessity. I’m not really interested in a .308 AR. That leaves us with the M1A. It’s powerful, reasonably accurate and can be improved, relatively easy to find parts for, and in my price range. Oh, and it looks good too. The fact remains though; I’m really not in love with it. It just appears to be the best option. So, what would you’all do? Please don’t tell me to buy an M1 and save $1K because, A: I don’t want one, B: I’m trying to keep my ammo limited and common and I’ve already selected .308 over 30/06. Also, the Cetmes, while nice, are too often CAI “angry beaver” products.

In the end, I’m going to buy the next M1A I find in the condition and model that I want. In a few months, I’ll buy the target rifle and it won’t be an issue. It just ticks me off that this is the situation.
 
Sounds like you want the M1A and are looking for reasons to justify your purchase [laugh]

Nothing wrong with that! It's a lot of money. I do the same thing, you're just trying to convince yourself it really is what you want. I did that when I bought my AR.

You'll be fine once you've got the sleek, evil looking thing in your hands.

FWIW I think you made the right choice.

So, are you going wood furniture or synthetic?
 
I've got an M1A, two M1s, a FAL, and an AR10. Of those guns, I prefer the M1A. It balances the best for me, sites and trigger are outstanding out of the box, and accuracy is excellent. Get yourself an M1A.

So, are you going wood furniture or synthetic?

Wood is prettier, particularly after you refinish the stock, as I have. But if I had it to do over again, I'd get synthetic.
 
I'm a big fan of the M1A's, but oddly enough I don't own one. I do have an old British L1A1 made with a Century receiver which is quite the package. It's very accurate and mad fun, but for a short bloke like me, it's a real handful and not the most comfortable gun to shoot for an extended period of time. But I agree with your assessment, buy a semi-auto rifle while you can. The bolt action slug throwers should be around for a good long time, but not so the semi-autos.
 
I have one of each of the big 3 of foreign military design semi auto rifles.

BTW the Galil is for sale.

If I had a choice between all of the rifles you have mentioned and could only afford one, I would pick the FAL.

Not only for parts availability but magazine cost and the fact that pre ban mags aren't rare.

IE the FN 50.63, Galil 308 ARM, HK 41.
Rifles3Van.jpg
 
Ya, it sounds like the M1A is the way to go and if you get the "tack-driver" itch you could always scope it. It won't be as accurate as the bolt gun but it'll hold it's own and you'll have fun.
 
Were you thinking about optics on these?

I haven't been shooting rifles much lately but also feel the need to buy a .308. I sold my CETME a couple years ago--liked it but it was taking up space and I was happy to apply the funds towards another firearms purchase.
 
Hmmm...thoughts, anyone, on the PTR-91?

www.ptr91.com

Supposed to be a nice rifle. For those us behind enemy lines, pre-ban magazines for the HK91 are cheap and readily available. Ergonomics on the charging handle is wonky -- handle is too far away. It beats up brass badly on ejection if you reload.

I'd get one if I had the money. But I don't, so I'll have to choose between my M1, M1A, AR10, and FAL instead.
 
If you are considering a Semi Auto mil type over a scoped Bolt action right now due to Obama and events as you state...It is my opinion that the M1A will be less likely to be embroiled up in any ban in the future as banning it would be like banning any mag fed semi auto. If they ban high caps it wont effect you as you are under that now.

I went through the same process you are having now. I had decided on the M1a and bought one before I deployed in 2005. Upon my return in 2007 I was really shocked at how much parts had skyrocketed for the M1A. I calculated out that if I want to get some general spare parts and make some little changes I would be spending a ton: Spare USGI parts, bolt, op rod and trigger group would cost over $600. Accessories are a little nuts in price too, price a decent scope mount.

G3/Ptr 91/HK91 is a good alternative. The only reason I leaned away from it is because I really want to learn to reload in the future and from what I have heard it is pretty hard on brass. Also...and this is just a personal thing, the standard pistol grip was a little large for my hand.

This left the FAL's. I have had them before and sold them. My true cost dilemma with the M1A made me revisit them again. In the end, imho a well built FAL is accurate enough or just as accurate as a "STANDARD" M1A. Spare parts are still plentiful and cheap and there is just enough aftermarket stuff out there to customize as you wish and changer what many claim are deficiencies in the design like sights.

So I came back to FAL and sold my M1a. had nothing to do with any bad opinion of M1A's. It was economics, a little ergonomics. Personally the Standard M1A and Standard FAL are close enough to equal on accuracy and reliability. If you do want to accurize...you can and will get more out of an M1A.

Like an HK91, pre ban mags are plentiful and cheap enough which is a plus for MA.

I do want to get a .308 bolt gun with glass in the future, but I figure I have time as they would be the last to get banned...right before Single shot rifles and double barrel shotguns.
 
Get the M1A. In a few weeks I will finish up my Armalite AR-10 build and we can get together and try them both.
 
Get the M1A. In a few weeks I will finish up my Armalite AR-10 build and we can get together and try them both.

Sold.



JD, good points. Like you, I passed on the PTR specifically (and the G3 platform in general) simply because of the "Brass-abuse" issue. It's a fine firearm that I think is underrated.

Oh yea, Plus, if destroying the brass wasn't bad enough, it deposits it neatly over a 1/4 square area...kidding, but not really.

It is true the the M1A goes up in price every time I turn around. Good point.

I have pretty much made up my mind to get the M1A and it was always going to happen sooner rather than later. I guess it's just that I'm really excited about the target rifle right now, and less so about the M1A. I bet when I have one in my hands it will change.

As far as the Optics...Well, no probably not. Here's why.
1. I haven't read about a single mount out there that people seem to like. Everything I hear from the SA brand mount up to the Larue (!?) says that they are only so so at holding zero and that the rifle really doesn't lend itself to scoping. I'm sure we've all seen them with scopes and I may get one eventually (after I get the ACOG for my AR), but not immediately.

Frankly, after trying PaulD (yes, thanks Paul!) a week or two ago (loaded model, not even a NM) I was so blown away with the quality and accuracy of the sights/rifle combo that I think I could enjoy it sans scope for a while.

When I got my first AR I didn't have a lot of money (like now) so I decided that I would spend the first year with BUIS only refining my ability before I added a scope. Of course, translated that meant, "I can't afford one and besides, the grapes are probably rotten." but it really paid off. Sure, I did have a nice set of Yankee Hill BUIS with a fiber optic front post so it wasn't like I was getting by with stock 10/22 sights or anything like that. I guess I think that the M1A will keep me similarly happy sans scope for a while.
 
In the end, imho a well built FAL is accurate enough or just as accurate as a "STANDARD" M1A.
Accurate enough? Maybe. Accurate as a standard M1A? Not in my experience. YMMV.
 
Accurate enough? Maybe. Accurate as a standard M1A? Not in my experience. YMMV.

Exactly. That's my problem with the FAL. A "well built" FAL, which today, means a DSA, isn't generally as accurate as the bottom level M1A. Look, we're probably talking a difference of 1 MOA on a Battle rifle, but still, it seems that most M1A even the base model, will shoot about 1MOA. I've come close myself. The FALs I tried struggled for 2.
 
As far as optic mounts for a M1a, I believe LRB arms makes a receiver that has a rail that is machined right into the receiver. That and they're receivers are hammer forged not cast. It is what I would get if I had the money.[sad2] One of these days.........[grin]
600_M25_right.jpg

831_M25_without_rail.jpg
 
Accurate enough? Maybe. Accurate as a standard M1A? Not in my experience. YMMV.

Standard...as in NM nothing 147gr M80 Ball. US Ordinance standards for the M14 were: "Every rifle had to group within 5.6 " at 100 yards with five rounds of M80 ball ammunition." As gathered from Different's writeup on the M14 History.

Using standard (not NM) commercial Springfield parts...or even USGI parts on a commercial Springfield receiver and the rifle is THAT much better than US Ordinance standards then you have a keeper.[grin]

Personally I think for Standard M1As you will avg out 2-4 MOA For Standard FALs I would say you will avg out 3-5 MOA. (edit: This doesnt mean that there are not standard M1a's that wont shoot 1.5 moa with M80 ball. But also means there are some that shoot 4 - 4.5)

Now...is the FAL more accurate generally? No. Again you can fine tune an M1a much more than an FAL. But then you are walking that fine line tolerances and reliability between a target rifle and a battle rifle. For its role as a battle rifle I say there are pretty much equal. The sights and trigger are where the M1A will take you out past 400-500m better than the FAL.

Raoul, 2 MOA with an FAL is good. With improved sights and a little trigger spring replacement may be even better.

The Loaded does have points over a "standard": "The loaded M1A has a 1:11 twist medium weight match barrel, National Match flash suppressor, .0520" non-hooded rear sight aperture and National Match front sight, National Match trigger group and either walnut or synthetic stock" Now how much in MOA that is worth? [wink]
 
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Exactly. That's my problem with the FAL. A "well built" FAL, which today, means a DSA, isn't generally as accurate as the bottom level M1A. Look, we're probably talking a difference of 1 MOA on a Battle rifle, but still, it seems that most M1A even the base model, will shoot about 1MOA. I've come close myself. The FALs I tried struggled for 2.

It sounds like you are looking for a target rifle that could in a pinch double as a Semi Auto Battle rifle. Yes FAL will not be that.

My FAL is a custom build with 18 inch chrome barrel which really I will only be counting on out to say 4-500m. After that...for me and my eyes that's for the Bolt with Optics :)
 
Dude...

m1a_2.jpg


As for the FAL, I've shot two and and they just didn't do it for me.
 
Personally I think for Standard M1As you will avg out 2-4 MOA For Standard FALs I would say you will avg out 3-5 MOA. (edit: This doesnt mean that there are not standard M1a's that wont shoot 1.5 moa with M80 ball. But also means there are some that shoot 4 - 4.5)

I've never seen an M1A that wouldn't do ~2 MOA.
 
I like them all, I have at least 1 of each 308 battle rifle listed and prefer my FAL for reliability and lightness.
The M1A is an excellent scoped gun (i use an ARMS mount) and NEVER had a problem with zeroing or ejection. But it's a heavy gun.
H&K 91 .....not too good, but I got one anyway.
AR style rifles.......not for me.
So as far as a tack driver, go with the M1A i think you will be pleased.
 
There is a reason that the AR platform is ubiquitous. Why aren't you interested in it?
Have you considered newer .308 weapons like the FNAR? It's guaranteed 1 MOA or better?

This is my preference:
TitanCover-360_50.jpg
 
First of all before you buy any Battle Rifle buy the "Boston Gun Bible" by Boston T party. He reviews all the guns and rates them in several categories. For myself, for a .308 I went with the a M1A Loaded with Iron Sights and a Remington 700 with a good scope.
 
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