LTC AND an FID?

[News Shooter]

In today's Firearms Newsletter Attorney Jesse Cohen makes a compelling argument for having both.

Download the pdf here. http://northeastshooters.com/images/COHEN_MAY.pdf

 

[Scrivener]

I routinely held both and advised my clients to do the same. When an FID cost $2 for life, there was no reason NOT to.

Now that each is $100, it is harder to make the argument.

 

[pdm]

If I have an unrestricted LTC/A there really isn't any incentive to get an FID. It wouldn't allow me to possess a pistol of any kind and any disqualifier for the LTC would also work on the FID, right?

 

[News Shooter]

You should read

what Jesse Cohen says about it and it sounds like Scriv agrees.


$2 ??????????????????????? Yikes

 

[pdm]

I read it. I wasn't moved by the argument. Pay $200 bucks for two licenses and if I lose my LTC/A, I probably lose the FID as well. I don't really get the point.

 

[News Shooter]

I'm not going to do it because of the cost

But as I read it the FID cannot be revoked for anything other than an actual disqualifying event..like you're convicted of being a crook. The LTC can be removed arbitrarily like everything else in this miserable state

 

[Chris]

Jesse missed one important fact.

The old $2 FID was also issued such that it could not be revoked unless a disqualifying situation arose.

However, that did not prevent the state from revoking every one of them by act of legislature. Who's to say that our liberal courts would ever side with a defendant if their LTC was revoked?

Might be worth the $100 to you, but I give this damn state enough money as it is.

Perhaps someone can explain it to me, but I fail to see how the old FID cards with and expiration date of "LIFETIME" could be eliminated by act of legislature. Seems to me that the signatures of the license authority and that of myself constitute a 'contract' who's terms are clearly written on the back of my card. I fail to see the place where "Act of legislature" was one of the disqualifying conditions.

Anyone?

 

[Scrivener]

Jesse missed one important fact.

The old $2 FID was also issued such that it could not be revoked unless a disqualifying situation arose.

However, that did not prevent the state from revoking every one of them by act of legislature. Who's to say that our liberal courts would ever side with a defendant if their LTC was revoked?

Your "fact" is false. The old FID cards were NOT "revoked;" they were given new, specific expiration dates. Whether you can or will acknowledge the difference is irrelevant; it exists regardless.

Might be worth the $100 to you, but I give this damn state enough money as it is.

Agreed.

Perhaps someone can explain it to me, but I fail to see how the old FID cards with and expiration date of "LIFETIME" could be eliminated by act of legislature.

Quite simply - FID's were created by the legislature and can be eliminated or amended by the legislature.

Seems to me that the signatures of the license authority and that of myself constitute a 'contract' who's terms are clearly written on the back of my card. I fail to see the place where "Act of legislature" was one of the disqualifying conditions.

Seems to me you have no understanding of a contract, which is premised upon bargained-for exchange, as opposed to a permitting process in which there are rules; not terms open to negotiation.

 

[Prepper]

I had an FID at the time that I applied for my LTC. Not that this was my intent, but I had thought I would then have both at the same time. The police officer who handles the applications told me the FID instantly became invalid due to the LTC. I asked this because I knew about the requirement of notifying 3 different places of any move that I do, and I wanted to make sure I didn't have to notify all 3 places about BOTH ID's. (Yuck!)

That said, I have no idea if you can actually have both ID's at the same time, but like I said I wasn't on purposely seeking that out as a goal to accomplish.

 

[Len-2A Training]

YES, you can possess BOTH an FID and LTC at the same time.

YES, if you move, you need to notify on both. Personally I'd do it in the same envelope/return receipt requested/certified Mail.

Some PDs were BS'g folks that they can't have both. They are wrong!

But the real value of an FID is almost nothing for anyone but the John Rosenthals and John Kerrys of the world. Since an FID is only good for chemical sprays and low-capacity long guns, most of what we own would be confiscated with any LTC suspension/revocation. In fact, I'd take bets that they wouldn't leave anything behind (including the FID in many cases).

Although the FID can't be suspended/revoked for "suitability", let's just say that "operationally" I've seen some evidence that leads me to believe that some licensing authorities carry it a bit beyond the law!

My Wife and I both had FID and LTC under the "old system" (pre-98 law). I see no value in having both any more, not for the money and aggravation of "doing it twice" and it not covering much of anything that I own.

 

[Prepper]

YES, you can possess BOTH an FID and LTC at the same time.

Well if that's the case and the officer was wrong, then my FID must have just expired on it's own. I assume that I don't have to worry about it anymore, right? (i.e. no need to notify anyone of any post-expiration move, or any need to keep it renewed, etc.)

Speaking of expiration, if someone's letting their LTC on purposely expire, is there anything they need to do other than to not own any guns at the time it expires? (i.e. it's OK to just let one expire w/o owning any guns and then not notifying anyone of a move after that)

 

[Len-2A Training]

Correct. Once it is expired, no need to notify anyone if move occurs after expiration.

 

[depicts]

I have my FID card and my LTC.

Before 1998 a confusing incident happened and the COP wanted to revoke my LTC. He sent me a letter to turn in my guns. I called him and told him I had an FID, issued in another town, and had notified him, my old town and the State about my move 10 years before (I had copies and receipts). Due to having a valid FID card, I did not have my guns confiscated and was allowed keep the guns in my home until the problem was straightened out.

He shortly renewed my LTC and that finished that. (After court that is)

Because that happened, I continued to get both, FID and LTC, even though the law changed, and I could not keep my handguns now if the same circumstances happened.

One other problem I have run into having both is when I applied for my FID renewal, for some reason the computer system deleted my LTC. I didn't find out about it until three years later when I went to renew my LTC. The Lieutenant told me I had been without a permit for those three years, and that he, or the computer screwed up. He told me to keep my LTC until he got me a new one, but couldn't renew the old one after three years.

I still have both today, but in light of the change of laws, I don't know if I will renew the FID again in 2010.

 

[Ripach]

If one runs into a situation where the LTC is suspended/revoked for any reason other than a disqualifier, couldn't you just go apply for an FID at that point and recover any firearms covered by the FID until your LTC situation is cleared up? Also for you lawyer types if my wife has a LTC ALP and mine is suspended revoked can't she just assume possession of my firearms?

 

[Len-2A Training]

Usually the local chief will order all your guns/ammo confiscated (literally all in the household). It will be a legal battle to get anything back.

I am NOT saying that the law allows them to do this (legally), just that it is a not uncommon occurrence. Another common occurrence is to revoke the Wife's permit as an "unsuitable person" for living in a household with another unsuitable person. BS? Yup! However . . . some do what they can get away with, and they can oftentimes get away with a lot.

[When Richard Feinberg was arrested for selling guns without an FFL, he was forced to turn in his LTC and personal guns to the local PD. Additionally Marcia was forced to turn in hers (LTC and guns) too. Not sure if this was "public info" (in the media) or what Marcia told my Wife . . . they sometimes see each other on the commuter rail.]

 

[Prepper]

If a wife can't take the guns, can a friend with LTC hold onto them should the LTC be terminated? What if they're sent to a friend out of state (it's not a "sale" so I don't think that'd be an issue)? What if they're already at said friend's place prior to LTC being terminated (thus making it technically illegal for me to pick up my own guns to deliver them to the police)?

 

[Len-2A Training]

Prepper,

I recently found in the MGL that if your LTC is suspended/revoked, the police MUST confiscate everything! After that, you "MIGHT" get them to agree to TRANSFER the guns to another licensed party (person or FFL). [I say "MIGHT" since the law clearly says "yes" but as another NES'r can tell you . . . his PD has refused to do so up to this time . . . and that has happened elsewhere as well.]

If you have the foresight to stash them with a friend in another state BEFORE you lose your LTC, your local PD really has no jurisdiction AND if you keep your mouth shut about where and who has them you should be "good to go" (even though you couldn't take possession of them in MA).

There is one case I am aware of where the person told the police that "Joe Smith" at 123 Main St, Anytown, NH held his guns. In that case, his PD had the guns confiscated from "Joe Smith" even though they were in NH. Had he kept his mouth shut, this wouldn't happen. IANAL and can't tell you that the local PD would look at withholding this info as "legal" (or not), but the 5th Amendment says you do not have to testify against yourself.

 

[depicts]

When I knew I was getting delayed with my permit renewal, I kept calling the Police Dept. to find out what was going on.

One day the Chief's secretary told me I'd be getting a letter the next day telling me to turn in all my guns.

Since I didn't have the letter yet, I packed up all my guns and took them to a friend who kept them for me for nine months.

I wouldn't want the police to take care of my guns, especially the nice ones. They are under no obligation to maintain them the way I do, and I think even if I did get them back they would be buckets of rust and pitting by then.

In my situation, if my wife had a LTC we probably could have kept them.

As it was, I had a valid FID, that at the time allowed me to have handguns and longuns, but I still didn't take any chances. I got the guns out of my possession BEFORE I got the letter.

I also called BATF in Boston, to ask for a clarification of the law. A Mr. Piggot told me that under the circumstances, the BATF might stop by, and if they found so much as a .22 caliber cartridge, it could put me in jail. Nice news this being a few days before Christmas.

It was difficult enough getting all my guns out of the house. Do you know how many loose rounds you can have in your range bags and equipment bags after 40 years of shooting???

Even at one point when I thought I had gotten everything out of the house, I noticed one or two wall hangers I had completely overlooked. I see them every day, and they sort of just blended into the decor. That caused me another run to my friends to hide the guns. All in all it took two car loads and a duffel bag to get everything out of my house including reloading supplies like powder bullets and primers, and my press as well.
During the 9 months it took to correct this problem, I put many of my handguns on consignment with a dealer/friend, who sold some of them to help me with legal fees. I'm still not back to where I was when this all happened.

 

[drgrant]

If I have an unrestricted LTC/A there really isn't any incentive to get an FID. It wouldn't allow me to possess a pistol of any kind and any disqualifier for the LTC would also work on the FID, right?

The main idea would be that if you have a shitty IA that declares you
"unsuitable" for some reason, you would still be able to possess some limited
firearms and ammunition in your home. That's about the only "upside" I can
think of to retaining an FID. I don't think they can pull the "unsuitable"
pet trick with an FID.

-Mike

 

[pdm]

The main idea would be that if you have a shitty IA that declares you
"unsuitable" for some reason, you would still be able to possess some limited
firearms and ammunition in your home. That's about the only "upside" I can
think of to retaining an FID. I don't think they can pull the "unsuitable"
pet trick with an FID.

-Mike

Fortunately, the town I live in is very green. And I have more handguns than rifles anyway, so the FID wouldn't help me there.

 

[Coyote33]

The main idea would be that if you have a shitty IA that declares you
"unsuitable" for some reason, you would still be able to possess some limited
firearms and ammunition in your home. That's about the only "upside" I can
think of to retaining an FID. I don't think they can pull the "unsuitable"
pet trick with an FID.

-Mike

See my reply here:
possible firearms license?


and the end here:
Traffic Law Question

 

[Prepper]

When I recently renewed my LTC, I was getting concerned about their delays. I applied two months before expiration, and I didn't get the card until the last week of the 90 day grace period (that's almost 5 months for anyone who's not doing the math). Shortly before I got it, I asked the police what I'm supposed to do with the guns if that period ends and I still haven't gotten the card yet. He just said to keep them locked up at home and don't touch them. I'm not sure if his answer was technically correct "legal" advice, but that otherwise seemed to be the attitude of my police department that they weren't going to suddenly show up at my house. Note that my town normally grants the LTC's and the delay was just due to being busy/lazy/bored/whatever rather than a concerted effort to deny people.

(This is why I previously asked what would happen if I sent my guns to a friend in NH prior to losing the LTC, because it almost happened and I was considering whether I should do this, but fortunately didn't need to.)

 

[Len-2A Training]

Prepper's PD is typical wrt the attitude of "what to do if 90 days runs out". MOST PDs aren't really looking to confiscate stuff (and do all that paperwork) just for shits and grins.

However, best bet if you live with an SO is to get both of you licensed. That overlap allows one to legally possess while the other one is waiting out the delays.

 

[Prepper]

However, best bet if you live with an SO is to get both of you licensed. That overlap allows one to legally possess while the other one is waiting out the delays.

That's a good idea and I wish I could do that, but the wife has NO willingness to have a LTC let alone actually look at or handle my guns. When I'm cleaning them, she leaves the room.