Ltc denied......overturned by district judge.....then reversed at appeal to mass superior court.

The problem is that until we have a slam dunk against suitability which cannot be decided any other way but in our favor, any case brought has an equal chance of cementing suitability as good law as it does dismantling the system.

I feel that. But ultimately, we're F'd in MA. So pushing hard all the way - especially in light of Bruen and our wonderful pro-2A administration (giggle), I see far less downside than upside.

The guy goes to court in mASS. He loses. He loses on appeal. He loses on appeal of hte appeal. He ends up going to Federal court, he loses there, he loses on appeal, finally, hte SCOTUS takes it and explains in small words written in crayon to the Commonwealth that their argument is all freaking wet.

My hope is that all of this crap goes away in the interim. . . 5 years or so. Rights are won (affirmed) slowly. I'm in for the haul and have checkbook in hand.
 
I left MA a couple years ago to escape the tyranny and f***ery at every level imaginable, so I no longer have a personal fight, outside of not wanting to see my friends and family still there continue to get f***ed, but, In the end that is on them to stay or leave.

That said, @Darksideblues42 and @Comm2A, from some of the posts you’ve made here, that outright state “we won’t fight for you unless we’re guaranteed to win, but please do continue to send us your money while we wait a few years for better victims of tyranny.”

I don’t even know how to process that mindset, and I would/will never give, send or share another dime with people who think that way. With this mindset why would anybody remain a member of comm2a? You’ve already stated up front that you won’t help them unless you have the perfect circumstances and the perfect victim of said tyranny. Who thinks that way?

No champions I’ve ever heard of. Davy and Goliath? Nahhhhh. Imagine if Davy was Comm2A, “Nahh, sorry Samuel, but if you guys can wait maybe another 10yrs or so for a better people to fight for give me a call back and we’ll talk.”

Yes I’m being a little sarcastic but seriously, your .org right here, right now, sounds like a complete of waste of space, money, and existence, cowering behind a desk waiting for a win to be handed to you on a platter. That’s not fighting, and if you think it is, you’ve already lost.
 
I left MA a couple years ago to escape the tyranny and f***ery at every level imaginable, so I no longer have a personal fight, outside of not wanting to see my friends and family still there continue to get f***ed, but, In the end that is on them to stay or leave.

That said, @Darksideblues42 and @Comm2A, from some of the posts you’ve made here, that outright state “we won’t fight for you unless we’re guaranteed to win, but please do continue to send us your money while we wait a few years for better victims of tyranny.”

I don’t even know how to process that mindset, and I would/will never give, send or share another dime with people who think that way. With this mindset why would anybody remain a member of comm2a? You’ve already stated up front that you won’t help them unless you have the perfect circumstances and the perfect victim of said tyranny. Who thinks that way?

No champions I’ve ever heard of. Davy and Goliath? Nahhhhh. Imagine if Davy was Comm2A, “Nahh, sorry Samuel, but if you guys can wait maybe another 10yrs or so for a better people to fight for give me a call back and we’ll talk.”

Yes I’m being a little sarcastic but seriously, your .org right here, right now, sounds like a complete of waste of space, money, and existence, cowering behind a desk waiting for a win to be handed to you on a platter. That’s not fighting, and if you think it is, you’ve already lost.
Let me be clear for you and everyone else.

It isn't about being guaranteed to win. It is about being guaranteed a fair chance in court, and most importantly, not making bad law along the way.

If we give the courts any wiggle room, they will find against us. I took a chance with Comm2A many years ago as the named plaintiff that established that electrical defense weapons were legal and constitutional. We had a diverse group of folks on board for this effort and basically the Commonwealth blinked and changed the law before our case came to a final judgement.

We need to have an airtight case to bring about any chance of changes to the landscape in Massachusetts. We have a massive uphill battle with Donkey freaking Kong throwing flamming barrels at us the whole way.

It will take time to work out strategies to take our rights back.
 
Let me be clear for you and everyone else.

It isn't about being guaranteed to win. It is about being guaranteed a fair chance in court, and most importantly, not making bad law along the way.

If we give the courts any wiggle room, they will find against us. I took a chance with Comm2A many years ago as the named plaintiff that established that electrical defense weapons were legal and constitutional. We had a diverse group of folks on board for this effort and basically the Commonwealth blinked and changed the law before our case came to a final judgement.

We need to have an airtight case to bring about any chance of changes to the landscape in Massachusetts. We have a massive uphill battle with Donkey freaking Kong throwing flamming barrels at us the whole way.

It will take time to work out strategies to take our rights back.

Appreciate the response and I’m not attacking you personally, but these are just words saying why you won’t fight for this particular guy who is obv getting f***ed and blatantly denied his rights because of the behavior of other people.

If you can’t find a rightious fight in that scenario then I’ll say again, I wouldn't donate or even remember your organizations name, because it should be called “comm2a but only maybe if you’re perfect otherwise we just sit here and collect money and dust”.
 
Let me be clear for you and everyone else.

It isn't about being guaranteed to win. It is about being guaranteed a fair chance in court, and most importantly, not making bad law along the way.

If we give the courts any wiggle room, they will find against us. I took a chance with Comm2A many years ago as the named plaintiff that established that electrical defense weapons were legal and constitutional. We had a diverse group of folks on board for this effort and basically the Commonwealth blinked and changed the law before our case came to a final judgement.

We need to have an airtight case to bring about any chance of changes to the landscape in Massachusetts. We have a massive uphill battle with Donkey freaking Kong throwing flamming barrels at us the whole way.

It will take time to work out strategies to take our rights

Appreciate the response and I’m not attacking you personally, but these are just words saying why you won’t fight for this particular guy who is obv getting f***ed and blatantly denied his rights because of the behavior of other people.

If you can’t find a rightious fight in that scenario then I’ll say again, I wouldn't donate or even remember your organizations name, because it should be called “comm2a but only maybe if you’re perfect otherwise we just sit here and collect money and dust”.

I gave up on comm2a years ago, precisely for this strategy.

“Bad case law” what’s the difference between that outcome and doing nothing? You have fight sometimes with what you have even if it’s not what you want…but you have to fight.
 
Let me ask something of both of you.

If we spent our limited funds on something we knew we had zero chance of winning just to say we did something and that meant passing on a winning case due to lack of funds, is that what you want us to do?

We have a series of cases in the works as to the unconscionable delays we face in the Commonwealth.

I would have loved to have gotten involved with this guy's case before he reached this point in the appeal process because we would have made damn sure he had a second amendment claim as part of his appeal. Because he didn't/doesn't have one, the case cannot move forward with a Bruen methodology challenge. I am working on figuring out if we can help, but unfortunately, his legal team painted any future appeals into a corner that might be impossible to get out of without some future court action that can be pointed at to show the unconstitutionality of the specifics of his case.
 
I've never been in court other than jury duty. Don't even have a single speeding ticket.....probably many would call me a "model citizen" lol. I fail to see the relevance of that in this discussion.

But you've had to sue for an ltc.....and you say you basically support a CoP denying an ltc to a guy that's not a pp.....but because his family has issues?

That's special.
I took my local CoP to court because he took a position, claiming he could, that was not allowed under NH RSA. Ultimately it would not have affected me, I could have just ignored it or just bitched on the internet. But it would have been one of those first steps to greater restrictions for everyone, if he continued to push that he was allowed to do this. He was going to lose but if no one stepped up, well then he keeps doing it. It became obvious very quickly that he had over stepped, and in the end he retracted his decision.

The point is that when given the opportunity I don't just bitch on the internet, or even just send money to someone to fight. Sure, I do these, but I'm also not going to sit around and let the local CoP play god.

So you go ahead and be a "model citizen" who never does anything more than bitch on the internet. I've been in court, one time each, as an expert witness, defendant, plaintiff, and twice as a witness. Oh, wait, does small claims count, that would make it twice as plaintiff. And I was there because I decided to be there, I wasn't called up and had too.

BTW what is with everyone serving on a jury, I've never been called up 🤷‍♂️
 
This seems needlessly aggressive. I am not hiding behind a computer at all. I am happy to meet folks. I will check with Rob, but you also have to understand that as a small organization with limited bandwidth, not every situation is one where we can help, or one where we can help on the timeline the situation might require. Ultimately, our goal has to be to build solid case law and not have cases that set the overall cause of defending 2A rights in Massachusetts back.
Maybe I'm a little sensitive that despite the time, It still pops up every few years and I have to explain the situation again, this despite moving out of state. And that the trail of records are still there even though it's now clear that the incident that started all this was either the result of a pretty big mistake, or intentional fraud.
I don't know that meeting at this point would make any difference unless comm2a wants to get into mitigating the damage, there are grounds to expunge the underlying case, and that could then lead to cleaning up the record of all the subsequent BS. Or at least recommend a good lawyer who can do this, calling the bar association for a referral is never a good idea.
 
I took my local CoP to court because he took a position, claiming he could, that was not allowed under NH RSA. Ultimately it would not have affected me, I could have just ignored it or just bitched on the internet. But it would have been one of those first steps to greater restrictions for everyone, if he continued to push that he was allowed to do this. He was going to lose but if no one stepped up, well then he keeps doing it. It became obvious very quickly that he had over stepped, and in the end he retracted his decision.

The point is that when given the opportunity I don't just bitch on the internet, or even just send money to someone to fight. Sure, I do these, but I'm also not going to sit around and let the local CoP play god.

So you go ahead and be a "model citizen" who never does anything more than bitch on the internet. I've been in court, one time each, as an expert witness, defendant, plaintiff, and twice as a witness. Oh, wait, does small claims count, that would make it twice as plaintiff. And I was there because I decided to be there, I wasn't called up and had too.

BTW what is with everyone serving on a jury, I've never been called up 🤷‍♂️
You spent all that time typing up your history about how awesome you are in court and how much youve done for everyie else ....and NONE of it means your opinion on this subject has more weight than anyone else's.

Sorry.....I stand by this

1. The whole ltc thing is unconstitutional.


2. In the face of the ltc system a cop should not have the ability to deny a non pp an ltc because of shit his family does

Your clearly in favor of the cops decision in the case were discussing "cuz community"......and "if it saves one life it's ok"

Yeah f*** all that a cop should not be able to skip due process by a f***ing jury of his peers and just deny a man his rights.....even worse.....to use a man's family's behavior as the determination of unsuitability.


And by the sounds of it you've probably never been called for jury duty cuz after all the time you've spent suing others your on a black list.
 
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You spent all that time typing up your history about how awesome you are in court and how much youve done for everyie else ....and NONE of it means your opinion on this subject has more weight than anyone else's.

Sorry.....I stand by this

1. The whole ltc thing is unconstitutional.


2. In the face of the ltc system a cop should not have the ability to deny a non pp an ltc because of shit his family does

Your clearly in favor of the cops decision in the case were discussing "cuz community"......and "if it saves one life it's ok"

Yeah f*** all that a cop should not be able to skip due process by a f***ing jury of his peers and just deny a man his rights.....even worse.....to use a man's family's behavior as the determination of unsuitability.


And by the sounds of it you've probably never been called for jury duty cuz after all the time you've spent suing others your on a black list.
you might want to learn to read.
 
you might want to learn to read.
Ok so.....you didn't say the cop should deny this guys ltc? Did I read that wrong?

Your first post on this thread you said and I quote:

"I'm with the chief in this one"



What did I miss?
 
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I gave up on comm2a years ago, precisely for this strategy.

“Bad case law” what’s the difference between that outcome and doing nothing? You have fight sometimes with what you have even if it’s not what you want…but you have to fight.

There are cases where taking them can potentially slam the door shut permanently on any chance at relief or even result in a loss of rights. (As a point of contrast, moonbats ate a large pile of shit because they brought a really shitty abortion case on an edge issue, that ultimately resulted in the complete discarding of Roe. ) I am not really sure this particular case qualifies as having a horrendously bad plantiff though, given that the individual himself was not the person with the problems. A court could at least argue "Restricting rights in this manner is terminally stupid, because if this stands, then a chief could use "suitability" to literally argue that someone cannot own guns because you live in the bad part of town or some other nonsense". I agree with you guys partially in a sense that this guy as a plaintiff isnt the worst someone could have selected for this kind of thing. The guy who has had his rights violated is not the "problem". That allows jurists to separate the two things. "having a bad household" or "having shitty family" shouldnt affect the rights of an individual.
 
I've never been in court other than jury duty. Don't even have a single speeding ticket.....probably many would call me a "model citizen" lol. I fail to see the relevance of that in this discussion.

But you've had to sue for an ltc.....and you say you basically support a CoP denying an ltc to a guy that's not a pp.....but because his family has issues?

That's special.
Oh but if he’s a PP, it’s ok to deny him his rights? Statist! Bootlicker!

If not in prison he gets gun! Haven’t you been paying attention?
 
Oh but if he’s a PP, it’s ok to deny him his rights? Statist! Bootlicker!

If not in prison he gets gun! Haven’t you been paying attention?
What the f*** are you saying?

A fed pp has had true due process to take that right away....a trail....a conviction.....not a cop saying "sorry your unsuitable"

I draw the line at true due process yes.....
 
You spent all that time typing up your history about how awesome you are in court and how much youve done for everyie else ....and NONE of it means your opinion on this subject has more weight than anyone else's.

Sorry.....I stand by this

1. The whole ltc thing is unconstitutional.
What is and isn't constitutional is a matter decided by whoever is in power at a given time. The constitution was written by man and isn't some magic god given document, Personally I support it as it limits the actions of government... in theory. But make no mistake, what it means is decided by man. And clearly, limits have been allowed, not always for the better.
The existence of an LTC may not be unconstitutional, but rather it's the conditions it sets, Bruen made this clear. It could even be said that in the past some form of LTC was a practical solution to the problem of verifying non-PP status, But that use has past as tech for instant checks now exists. So now an LTC serves no purpose, and can only be a medium for non-constitutional conditions. Simply put, there is no benefit side to a cost/benefit comparison,
2. In the face of the ltc system a cop should not have the ability to deny a non pp an ltc because of shit his family does
I absolutely agree that the law should be changed and suitability removed, but I say this while still recognizing that there are people and situations where a gun is a bad idea. Of someone can come up with a fair way to insure this I would support it. The problem is that so far I haven't seen a way to do this that would even be effective, let alone fair. In the past this wasn't a problem. Communities were small, everyone knew every else and they would simply self regulate, no need even for a law. Jimmy down the way is a little off so nobody lets him have a gun, no law, just a community taking care of itself. Unfortunately, the small town community is long gone. So we are left with this mess.
Your clearly in favor of the cops decision in the case were discussing "cuz community"......and "if it saves one life it's ok"
You'll never hear me say this so don't be making lying quotes.
Yeah f*** all that a cop should not be able to skip due process by a f***ing jury of his peers and just deny a man his rights.....even worse.....to use a man's family's behavior as the determination of unsuitability.
Well we agree here, I don't like MA suitability, but if you people can't get rid of it, at least make it more clearly defined and give it due process with a real trial with rules of evidence and testimony. It's hard to hit a moving target and in a suitability hearing the PD's lawyer can say anything he wants and shift focus however he wants, and doesn't need to back up any of it with verifiable, challengeable evidence.
And by the sounds of it you've probably never been called for jury duty cuz after all the time you've spent suing others your on a black list.
Lear to read, hardly any time at all. A small claims suit when I was 18 is hardly black list worthy. And this may come as a surprise to you but you don't really have a choice if they want you to testify as a witness. and that was twice (a traffic and a DUI thing) in 57 years. The expert witness, yup I had a choice there, get pay to sit and talk for an hour at something like 100x what I was making an hour. Would have loved to do more but that was when I was injured and had to leave the profession.
And a year ago I accused my local CoP of a violation of NH RSA, I guess I could have been a "Model Citizen" like you and done nothing, just bitched on the internet while accepting his actions. But I challenged him despite the fact that his decision had little practical affect on me, but it was outside his authority and authority needs to be checked. And I really doubt something that happened last year can explain decades of never being called for jury duty.
As for being on list, ya quite a few at this point., But I'm not a "Model Citizen" like you. I'm not the good boy satisfied to do nothing more than bitch on the internet.
you might want to learn to read.

Ok so.....you didn't say the cop should deny this guys ltc? Did I read that wrong?

Your first post on this thread you said and I quote:

"I'm with the chief in this one"



What did I miss?
The law requires the CoP to make a decision, and whether he agrees with the law or not, if it goes horribly wrong (which I think it will in this case) the media, the public, and the politicians will destroy his life (right or wrong he'll be the scapegoat). We don't even know if he personally agrees with suitability. He in a no win situation. And in this case the subjects judgement seems poor to the point of being dangerous.
So ideally the LTC is denied AND the subject get a real trial with proper rules of evidence (due process).
But for now we have to live in the real world. And imagine he is given the LTC and the inevitable conflict happens. The issue will be held up to the press and the people of MA as a reason for more gun control, and you will get it.
 
There are cases where taking them can potentially slam the door shut permanently on any chance at relief or even result in a loss of rights. (As a point of contrast, moonbats ate a large pile of shit because they brought a really shitty abortion case on an edge issue, that ultimately resulted in the complete discarding of Roe. ) I am not really sure this particular case qualifies as having a horrendously bad plantiff though, given that the individual himself was not the person with the problems. A court could at least argue "Restricting rights in this manner is terminally stupid, because if this stands, then a chief could use "suitability" to literally argue that someone cannot own guns because you live in the bad part of town or some other nonsense". I agree with you guys partially in a sense that this guy as a plaintiff isnt the worst someone could have selected for this kind of thing. The guy who has had his rights violated is not the "problem". That allows jurists to separate the two things. "having a bad household" or "having shitty family" shouldnt affect the rights of an individual.
The statists pretending to be patriots in here need to recognize a slippery slope, but statists gonna statist I guess.
 
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The law requires the CoP to make a decision, and whether he agrees with the law or not, if it goes horribly wrong (which I think it will in this case) the media, the public, and the politicians will destroy his life (right or wrong he'll be the scapegoat). We don't even know if he personally agrees with suitability. He in a no win situation. And in this case the subjects judgement seems poor to the point of being dangerous.
So ideally the LTC is denied AND the subject get a real trial with proper rules of evidence (due process).
But for now we have to live in the real world. And imagine he is given the LTC and the inevitable conflict happens. The issue will be held up to the press and the people of MA as a reason for more gun control, and you will get it.
Unfortunately this is MA law......and any Chief will hide like a squirrelly bitch under the guise of state law, and let the higher courts decide and take the heat for the decision. Most of these a**h***s would....... as they are pussies hiding behind and unconstitutional law and letting someone else take the blame if something happens.

But please don't mansplain it as OK because what you think might happen, or assume you'll get more gun control because of it, etc. That's just selling out to the idea that your behind this whole pussified Chief idea.

I lived for 50 plus years in MA....and there was some stupid shit that happened with gun owners who had permits NOT ONCE...do I EVER recall anyone in the media asking......Who the hell gave that guy a permit? And blamed them a Chief for it....yet they hide behind that facade all the time to shit on rights.

Id rather Law Enforcement grow some FXCKING BALLS and like they do in a lot of other states...when an anti 2A law comes about....simply say.....not enforcing it...we are under SHALL ISSUE thru the Constitution per Bruen. Don't like it.....GFY. Sure...Town can vote them out...but they won't do it in most places I'd bet.

Nope.......you statists here just enable that behavior....oohh...someone might get hurt...and give the chief praise for keeping the town safe and say of course you have to deny.....something might go wrong....and have your rights flushed down the shitter.

Got news for you....something might go wrong with anyone you give permit to...so why not just deny everyone and let the courts give them if thats your stance.
 
There are cases where taking them can potentially slam the door shut permanently on any chance at relief or even result in a loss of rights. (As a point of contrast, moonbats ate a large pile of shit because they brought a really shitty abortion case on an edge issue, that ultimately resulted in the complete discarding of Roe. ) I am not really sure this particular case qualifies as having a horrendously bad plantiff though, given that the individual himself was not the person with the problems. A court could at least argue "Restricting rights in this manner is terminally stupid, because if this stands, then a chief could use "suitability" to literally argue that someone cannot own guns because you live in the bad part of town or some other nonsense". I agree with you guys partially in a sense that this guy as a plaintiff isnt the worst someone could have selected for this kind of thing. The guy who has had his rights violated is not the "problem". That allows jurists to separate the two things. "having a bad household" or "having shitty family" shouldnt affect the rights of an individual.

Eventually you have to fight it

If you wait forever it’s no different then dking it and losing
 
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