Neshooters drops it's affiliation with Suarez

[JimConway]

As of June 21, 2007, Neshooters, LLC has dropped our affiliation with Gabe Suarez and Suarez International. We had two reasons for doing this.

First, Saurez wanted to approve all of the outside instructors that we wanted to bring into this area. While the instructors that are on Gabe's list are all very good, the list is very short. As an example, Gabe did not want us to deal with Louis awerbuck, Gunsite, Randy Cain, Valhalla, and Clint Smith to name a few.

Secondly, Gabe has announced that we must charge more money for the classes that we teach in 2008. The new price for his courses is $300.00 for a 2 day course. Neshooters considered this price too high and too close to the prices charged by the outside trainers.

All of the 2 day courses that we will teach in 2008 will be priced at $230.00 with the first day only, or the second day only, priced at $125.00 per day.

In 2008 Neshooters will be offering the following 2 day courses:

• Defensive Handgun 100: This will be an entry level course which focuses on the basics of shooting a handgun with an emphasis on accuracy. Most of the shooting will be performed a fairly slow rates of fire at ranges between 3 and 25 yards. This course will be based upon an article entitled “The Anatomy of One Perfect Shot”
  
  
• Defensive Handgun 200: This will be an intermediate level course which will focus on shooting at shorter distances. We will also address turning and shooting. In this course we will emphasis more relaxed accuracy standards and much faster rates of fire.
  
  
• Defensive Handgun 300: (Advanced handgun skills, drills and scenarios based on real events) The object of the course will be what can work in potential real events.

Private, Individual and Group classes will be available

 

[matt]

Jim,

I applaud your desire to offer affordable and accessible training.

I hope to benifit from more of it in the future.

Matt

 

[Jose]

As an example, Gabe did not want us to deal with Louis awerbuck, Gunsite, Randy Cain, Valhalla, and Clint Smith to name a few.

What is he afraid of?

 

[Rob Pincus]

I'm going to send him an email and ask....

-RJP

 

[Rob Pincus]

I got this:


"I have never met you, nor do I have anything against you or your organization..."

and a copy of the letter explaining to Mr. Conway what the requirements were for maintaining affiliation with Suarez.....


The fact is that many martial arts affiliations work the same way "If you teach my Kung-Fu, you can't teach "Kung-Fu ver. X"...

It is an old business model that can work, but doesn't really encourage program development or thoroughly educated students.

 

[andy t]

I am glad that neshooters is now independent. Personally, I would not want to be part of any organization that dictates ones friends. Having trained under Louis, and heard of other instructors' bios , makes me question not only Suarez's business ethics but his true motives.

 

[KMaurer]

As was noted, it's a not uncommon practice. I expect that we'll be hosting Gabe here again at some future date, since he's a hell of a good instructor, worth every penny he charges. It's simply that NEShooters members won't be teaching Suarez classes.

Ken

 

[drgrant]

I am glad that neshooters is now independent. Personally, I would not want to be part of any organization that dictates ones friends. Having trained under Louis, and heard of other instructors' bios , makes me question not only Suarez's business ethics but his true motives.

Is it possible that some of the names that were dropped teach skills which
run contradictory to some of the stuff that Suarez does? Or maybe there
is bad blood between some of them. That might be part of the problem.
Might also be as shallow as a "branding/image" issue as well. Practically
speaking, Suarez can do whatever they want; eg, it's no different than
dunkin donuts saying that anyone who uses their brand/affiliation can only
sell their products as opposed to starbucks, etc. This kind of thing
happens all the time in a bunch of industries and nobody ever says anything
about it. I'm not saying that this is good for the customer... destruction
of choice is usually a bad thing; and I think that's why Jim + co probably
liberated themselves from the agreement.... eg, more freedom is better
than less.


-Mike

 

[JimConway]

drgrant
There are two things that must be recognised.
First, there is a great deal of animosity between various groups of firearm trainers. I have heard a number of diatribes from trainers when a competing trainer's name was mentioned. Before our classes, I have had to caution a few trainers that I did not want any mention of other trainers in our classes, unless they had something good to say. With that said, I have never heard Gabe Suarez say a bad word about another trainer.

A question was raised about teaching skills which run contradictory to some of the stuff that Suarez does. In a general sense there is very little difference between the skills taught any of the top name trainers. However, some other trainers, Gabe included, offer somewhat different approaches or refinements to certain skills.

Please understand that the core issue with Gabe was that he did not want to have us to bring in any trainer that did not actively support him. While there are a number of very good trainers that do support Gabe, there are many more that choose to not support any trainer but themselves.

 

[JimConway]

Suarez

There is one thing that i want to make crystal clear.
I have no ill feeling about this situation. I both like and respect Gabe Suarez. I am equally impressed by the material that we taught for Gabe and am sure that many elements of Gabe's programs will be integral parts of the classes that we will teach next year. I will close this message by quoting Gabe's email to me after I told him that I was leaving his organization.

"Jim,

I fully understand your decission. No hard feelings and I wish you guys the best.

Gabe"

 

[Thor67]

I agree. Gabe is a great guy. I'm sure the situation was more of a branding decision on his part than anything else.

Sounds like Jim is talking about brining in great trainers! Trainer's like Rob Pincus, Louis Awerbuck, and others that Jim mentioned will no doubt add their own style, flair, and methods to the courses. Ultimately I think we're all bright enough to garner the nugets of wisdom and synthesize techniques that work into our own training, knowledge base, and response doctrine.

Good on you, Jim. I hope it goes well!

 

[Rob Boudrie]

I certainly don't fault Gabe or NE Shooters. From Gabe's position, having instructors not on his dance card teach at an affiliate would be like Four Seasons hosting a "Manufacturer's Rep Day" at the shop for a brand firearm they don't carry and can't order.

 

[M.Nastek]

We (Jim, Doug R. & I) NEShooters, LLC struggled with the severing of our relationship with S.I..

We respect Gabe and his teachings, and that will not change. And he is welcome at our table anytime.

But we had to review the direction that our organization was founded upon.

And we decided that the basic charter/foundation of NEShooters was and always will be, is to bring and promote the best trainers that we can locate and bring to New England.

That being said.

It was the single fact that facilitated our seperation from the Suarez Staff.

We hope that the Northeast Shooters community will attend and support us and the Trainers that we will be hosting in 2007 and in the future years to come.

Our goal is to train, prepare and make ready all those who are willing to learn.

Mike N.

 

[MAC2187]

Jim, Mike and Doug
I applaud you gentlemen for taking hold of your own destiny. I attended both the classes you offered this spring and am better for it. I wish you all the best of luck and look forward to attending your force on force class. I have great respect for you three and look forward to training with you again.

 

[Gabe Suarez]

Gents,

A little black bird told me you were talking about me, and just as the devil appears when you talk about him...well, you know the rest. Before the internet rumor mill takes this and puts it right next to the one about me training narco-terrorists in Colombia (it was sreally Peru), I thought I'd pop a can of clarity.

SI has been very successful all over the world with the format that we have, which, as was eloquently described by Rob Pincus (for whom I have a great deal of respect), comes directly from the martial arts business model.
Our instructors earn about $1000 per day for teaching (assuming a class of 10 students) so they are well compensated for the exclusivity I require.

But before we get onto a bunny trail, here is the deal, and a synopsis of the conversations between Jim and I:

*****

Subject: Re: Instructor Business

To answer your question Jim, I don't know if we will have any other folks join the Warriortalk Forum, or align themselves with SI. I'd like to see more of them, but to tell you who or if would simply be speculating. Activities which you are your crew are involved in such as:

* NRA classes,
* Private training,
* Private and group coaching,
* Public Shooting clinics

Are not and have never been an issue. The issues, as we have discussed before, are:

1). SI spends a great deal of resources promoting the classes and the instructors. If I point students to you and you in turn point to other training groups by hosting them, I am in essence paying for the advertising of those other groups. This is not good business unless they are reciprocating. Chevy dealers do not sell Toyota.

I want to make sure that only those who have helped SI along the way benefit from it. None of these guys pay for my website, forum, or marketing so why should they benefit from my labor?

2). If I was to not make an issue of NE bringing in all these other trainers, all my other instructors would want to do the same things (as some have already asked based on what you and your crew are doing). Again, this is not good business. I've told them no, and I cannot make exceptions.

Here are the options as I see them (there may be others but this is as far as I can think this morning) -

Continue as Suarez International Staff, hosting me and any other trainer who supports us, and benefiting from the classes you teach for us. But that means excluding trainers who do not directly support us via internet forum reciprocity, warriortalk participation, etc.

Unfortunately, this biz being as cut throat as it is, that means "no" to any trainer or training group that is not directly reciprocating with support for the Suarez organization. In other words, continue as a Chevy dealer.

or

Continue solely as a Suarez International host. This means you host anyone you wish. The downside is you will not be promoted via our marketing as staff instructors, and we would not be sending students your way for basic or intermediate level classes.

Thanks,

Gabe Suarez
__________________

Suarez International USA, Inc.
One Source Tactical
www.suarezinternational.com
Office 928-776-4492

Blessed be the Lord my rock
Who trains my hands for war
And my fingers for battle

 

[JimConway]

What instructors make in a day

Gabe stated "Our instructors earn about $1000 per day for teaching (assuming a class of 10 students) so they are well compensated for the exclusivity I require."

Just so that you all do not think that we were getting rich, I would like to clarify the amount that we earned in a day teaching for Gabe. Gabe is correct that he paid us about $1,000.00 day day for a class of 10 students. He did not mention that we had to pay all of our expenses out of the money. For the class of 10 students, we would have to pay a fee for the use of the range of about $200.00, and provide all of the targets and target backers for about another $45.00. Now consider that we often had 2 or 3 instructors teaching the course. I am sure that you can all see that this was not a high profit venture.
There is no doubt in my mind that I could have taught any of the classes alone and made more money. We decided that is was more prudent to have at least one more instructor on the line for safety concerns, to provide individdual coaching (when needed) and to help preserve our voices.

We have used the monies from all of our classes to purchase better steel target systems and other items that make a class a better experience for the students.

We teach classes because there is a need for afordable quality training but mostly because we love teaching. Since Neshooters was started, we have never even tried to make a profit and have achieved that goal.

 

[Adam_MA]

That makes sense to me.

Thanks for the follow-up Gabe!

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Since Neshooters was started, we have never even tried to make a profit and have achieved that goal.

Jim - I'll let you in on the secret on how to make a small fortune in the gun training businesss - start with a large one (fortune, that is).

 

[JimConway]

Thanks, Rob. I wondered who would be first to pick up on that.

 

[Big Daddy 45acp]

Let me chime in here!

The reason I got involved with NE Shooters was to become a Suarez Instructor.

After reading a lot about Gabe, both the pro and con, I found him to be a lot like myself. Then after training with Gabe, I was salivating at the chance to teach his material. That is just me, however.

The crew of NE Shooters happens to be one of the finest group of people I have ever had the pleasure of sharing trigger time. When Jim called to inform me of the Suarez situation, he told me that I could call Gabe and request to teach SI material on my own. My hat is off to you, Jim!

As far as doing that, as much as would like to, now is not the time for me to branch out on my own. When my wife retires and we have 20-30 acres up North with a secluded, private range, I may reach out to Gabe and affiliate myself fully with Suarez International.

 

[JimConway]

Scott
Thank you for the kind comments

 

[Big Daddy 45acp]

No thanks needed Jim. You know me too well. I just call them like I see them!

Still hoping for my wife to get that early retirement option!

How does a private range with no BS rules sound?

 

[Rob Pincus]

Okay.... so I'm setting up the Spring 2007 schedule. Jim, get with me about possible dates for a visit to your neck of the woods.



EDITED:

That didn't take long.. looks like I'll be in New England teaching on April 26th & 27th, 2008... hopefully, I'll meet many forum members on the trip.

-RJP