New shooter question

[ReluctantDecoy]

I've had my license for a while, but haven't really gotten serious about shooting until recently. First gun was an M&P Shield 9mm (gen 1). Great gun so far, but I didn't seem to be improving much with my groupings. About 7-8" at only 10 yards when shooting at about a shot/sec. I eventually bought a Kahr P9. It is roughly the same size as the Shield, but weighs 15oz vs 20oz for the Shield. I really dislike how the Kahr shoots. Very snappy with a long (but smooth) trigger and little to no tactile reset. Snappiness is probably due to weight.

Anyway, I really prefer the feel and shootability of the Shield, so I invested in an Apex trigger and action kit. The trigger is amazing--improves the stock trigger in every possible way. However, my groupings, while a little better, are still in the 6-7" range at 10 yards. The Kahr on the other hand is a tack driver (for my current rookie ability). 4" groups or better are easily achieved with shot/sec pace, often times with 2-finger wholes near the center of the target.

So, my question is--and this might not be answerable, but I'd appreciate the feedback--how is the Kahr more accurate when I seem to have more trouble with recoil with it? I mean, it isn't unmanageable because it is only 9mm, but I definitely feel the recoil more on the Kahr. I've been really concentrating on form, stance, and grip. Been actively pursuing best practices on trigger actuation too. I still can't figure out how the superior trigger and feeling gun is shooting so much worse. For general spcs, both guns have been upgraded to white ring tritium front sights. The only other mod was the trigger job on the Shield, but the Shield was second hand. New barrel maybe?

 

[Supermoto]

Recoil has nothing to do with accuracy at 1 shot per second. Grip, stance, form really has little to do with it either. The only thing that matters is keeping the sights on target until the trigger breaks.

Could the barrel be bad, possibly. Let an experienced shooter take a few shots and you will quick see if its a problem

 

[ReluctantDecoy]

Recoil has nothing to do with accuracy at 1 shot per second. Grip, stance, form really has little to do with it either. The only thing that matters is keeping the sights on target until the trigger breaks.

Could the barrel be bad, possibly. Let an experienced shooter take a few shots and you will quick see if its a problem

That's a great idea about having a better shooter try it. There are plenty of NRA instructors at my range, so I'm going to give that a try. The gun appeared to be in great condition with almost no wear on the outside. Inside looked good as well upon take down, but I have no idea when it comes to barrels/wear.

 

[Supermoto]

That's a great idea about having a better shooter try it. There are plenty of NRA instructors at my range, so I'm going to give that a try. The gun appeared to be in great condition with almost no wear on the outside. Inside looked good as well upon take down, but I have no idea when it comes to barrels/wear.

No, an actual good shooter

 

[ReluctantDecoy]

No, an actual good shooter

lol. I did wonder if their giant "NRA Instructor" patches were a little over compensating for something.

 

[arsco]

Lol

 

[greencobra]

"NRA Instructor"

much like coaches in other sports, not necessarily the best players. lol

 

[kelton]

Also, try some different ammo and or weight (115,124,147)

 

[ReluctantDecoy]

Also, try some different ammo and or weight (115,124,147)

Good thought, but I've tried at least 4 brands of 115, 2 boxes of 124, and 2 boxes of 147 reloads--all ball. Maybe it's because I'm still green, but I could hardly tell the difference outside of a couple stovepipes on the reloads. Outside of those stovepipes, both guns have mechanically run flawlessly, but the Kahr just outshoots the Shield. I did read about Kahr break in issues, so I did rack that new pistol a couple hundred times before actually firing it. It also is worth mentioning that from my limited experience, Kahrs need to be racked by the slide stop as opposed to sling shot'ing them.

 

[mothybee]

Good thought, but I've tried at least 4 brands of 115, 2 boxes of 124, and 2 boxes of 147 reloads--all ball. Maybe it's because I'm still green, but I could hardly tell the difference outside of a couple stovepipes on the reloads. Outside of those stovepipes, both guns have mechanically run flawlessly, but the Kahr just outshoots the Shield. I did read about Kahr break in issues, so I did rack that new pistol a couple hundred times before actually firing it. It also is worth mentioning that from my limited experience, Kahrs need to be racked by the slide stop as opposed to sling shot'ing them.

My experience is Shields don't like white box and as far as instructors marksmanship, I can hit the broad side of a barn.........if you leave the damn door open..........occasionally......... Well, maybe a graze it.......sorta.

 

[ReluctantDecoy]

My experience is Shields don't like white box and as far as instructors marksmanship, I can hit the broad side of a barn.........if you leave the damn door open..........occasionally......... Well, maybe a graze it.......sorta.

Huh...most of my rounds have been Winchester white box and mil surplus ball. Just cheaper in bulk. I've tested some JHP just for reliability check, but those are too expensive for range day. Would white box really effect accuracy? If so, why doesn't the Kahr have issues with it? Wondering if the P9's slightly longer barrel actually makes a difference.

 

[mothybee]

Huh...most of my rounds have been Winchester white box and mil surplus ball. Just cheaper in bulk. I've tested some JHP just for reliability check, but those are too expensive for range day. Would white box really effect accuracy? If so, why doesn't the Kahr have issues with it? Wondering if the P9's slightly longer barrel actually makes a difference.

Meant stove pipe issues. Changed to Blazer couple thousand rounds ago, none since. Accuracy is usually on the shooter, anticipating, flinching, slapping the trigger. Oh, and don't look to admire your work, keep fixed on the same spot, reset and fire. Did I mention, leave the barn door open?

 

[ReluctantDecoy]

Meant stove pipe issues. Changed to Blazer couple thousand rounds ago, none since. Accuracy is usually on the shooter, anticipating, flinching, slapping the trigger. Oh, and don't look to admire your work, keep fixed on the same spot, reset and fire. Did I mention, leave the barn door open?

Ahh...My stovepipes have only been with reloads. I haven't had any issues with any of the factory stuff at all outside of one light strike on Fiocchi bulk 115 brass. Is it still considered a light strike when the primer is clearly struck hard in the center, but it doesn't fire? That just happened today with the Shield.

 

[RapidTransit]

Ahh...My stovepipes have only been with reloads. I haven't had any issues with any of the factory stuff at all outside of one light strike on Fiocchi bulk 115 brass. Is it still considered a light strike when the primer is clearly struck hard in the center, but it doesn't fire? That just happened today with the Shield.

I'm not sure of the correct term either but Fiocchi always does this, I just call it a hard primer, happens in my G43 and VP9 but the stuff leaves the inside of my pistols squeaky clean.

You may already know this but if it does happen keep the pistol pointed down range for at least 60 seconds when you encounter a hard primer.

 

[ReluctantDecoy]

I'm not sure of the correct term either but Fiocchi always does this, I just call it a hard primer, happens in my G43 and VP9 but the stuff leaves the inside of my pistols squeaky clean.

You may already know this but if it does happen keep the pistol pointed down range for at least 60 seconds when you encounter a hard primer.

Shit....I didn't know that. I racked and took the dud to the "dud" bin. They have a steel canister for duds at my local. Good to know.

 

[mothybee]

Back when I was a kid and dinosaurs ruled the earth, "slow cooker." Now, "hangfire." Rare with factory loads but, can happen, give it 30.

 

[Supermoto]

The NRA teaches to stand there for god knows how much time in case of hang fire. That's fine if you only shoot at a range for fun. If you shoot competitions or train for self defense, then you want to get that round out immediately. A round on the ground is safer than in a gun you are screwing with.
Out of 100,000 rounds, I have had one hang fire that fire in a tenth of a second after the firing pin hit. Faster than I could react. It was caused because the inside of the case had water in it.

 

[MMArtist]

No, an actual good shooter

LoL Supermoto is my fav poster here.

As far as your question op. Handgun accuracy for 99% of people is not an issue. Unless the gun is not made correctly/broken its plenty accurate for a new shooter. All the things your taught on that dumb shot placement chart is generally nonsense as well.

The main thing that effects handgun accuracy is breaking the shot without moving the gun. If you really want to start on the right foot shooting, go to some USPSA or the like matches and see if some of the better guys are willing to do some instruction with you. NRA instructors, LEOs, Military etc. are generally rubbish shooters. Its just that everyone else is so bad they seem good.

 

[mothybee]

The NRA teaches to stand there for god knows how much time in case of hang fire. That's fine if you only shoot at a range for fun. If you shoot competitions or train for self defense, then you want to get that round out immediately. A round on the ground is safer than in a gun you are screwing with.
Out of 100,000 rounds, I have had one hang fire that fire in a tenth of a second after the firing pin hit. Faster than I could react. It was caused because the inside of the case had water in it.

Couldn't agree more with what you said, thought he was talking range. Rim fires are a totally different story but, that's for a different day.

 

[ReluctantDecoy]

I think I've figured it out. The Shield's backstrap area may be just a pinch too oval to prevent the entire pistol from wanting to twitch left upon break. It has a slightly larger trigger reach than the P9, so combined with the shape of the backstrap, the pistol wants to turn when I pull the trigger (also digs into my palm a bit). I could see it while dry firing. Very faint, but enough to most likely cause some accuracy issues. P9 on the other hand has a flatter backstrap area. Combine that with the shorter trigger reach, and the pistol is just more stable through the break. At least with my stubby fingers.

Wondering if it would be possible to take a Dremel grinding wheel to the Shield's backstrap to flatten it a bit without ruining the pistol.

 

[Matt-CZ]

Dry firing is a great way to practice and it's free. Last moment movement, either from pulling the trigger or anticipating the recoil, is very common. Practice dry firing the pistol while trying to keep the sights steady on target. You'll notice if they move. Compare the two pistols while dry firing.

 

[TrashcanDan]

Wondering if it would be possible to take a Dremel grinding wheel to the Shield's backstrap to flatten it a bit without ruining the pistol.

You might want to avoid that.
Material removal can lead (down the line) to a hairline fracture turned split.
You have too much length of pull on the shield, is that correct?

 

[Supermoto]

Dry firing is a great way to practice and it's free. Last moment movement, either from pulling the trigger or anticipating the recoil, is very common. Practice dry firing the pistol while trying to keep the sights steady on target. You'll notice if they move. Compare the two pistols while dry firing.

This, dry fire until you have a clean trigger break. I would not modify the gun. Your sights are moving because of your trigger pull, not because of the backstrap

 

[uwaeve]

Something (you) is causing angular movement of the gun between when your brain says "fire" and the trigger breaks. You need to figure out how to keep that from happening. The easiest thing for me when learning was to try for a loooooong trigger pull (like 5 or so seconds, just slowly creeping through it), concentrating intently on the sight picture, and letting the gun surprise me going off. Mix some snap caps into your magazines and watch the gun dip when you hit them. This is the symptom, you are looking to cure the cause. Sadly I'm not an instructor so can't "fix it" for you, but rest assured you think you're keeping the gun steady but it is pointing somewhere else (where the hole ends up) when the trigger breaks.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

lol. I did wonder if their giant "NRA Instructor" patches were a little over compensating for something.

I find that having the NRA certification is useful - it allowed me to get the certification to teach the course needed for a MA license. It also helped with some out of state licenses (no need to get a new course to meet the CT or FL requirement), and is a nice adder when applying to a "may issue" authority (RI AG). There are multiple reports that an NRA instructor card can get you "unrestricted" in Boston. And yes, I am a mid-level shooter (enough to look an expert to most casual shooters, and also enough to get my butt kicked at any real competition).

That being said, I do not, and never will, get a tacky NRA Instructor patch.

 

[DarthRevan]

If you want to take a trip to Georgetown, I could spend some time trying to diagnose what's wrong with how you're shooting.
Much like Rob describes himself, I'm pretty good with a pistol on a stationary target out to 25yds so long as I dont rush anything.
Strongly recommend dry fire while sitting on the couch after work. Find a target on the opposite wall from you, and keep the gun steady through out the trigger pull. Let the break surprise you, anticipation is a killer of accuracy. Do that for a half hour each night until you're confident the sights dont move off target after the break.
And obviously (I hope...) only do this with an unloaded firearm.

 

[ReluctantDecoy]

You might want to avoid that.
Material removal can lead (down the line) to a hairline fracture turned split.
You have too much length of pull on the shield, is that correct?

Good stuff guys. Thank you all.

The Shield's new Apex trigger pull is very short and crisp. I was more referring to the actual distance between front face of trigger and back strap area being a little longer with the Shield, meaning my finger has to reach out a little further to make contact. I'm inclined to think that this minor change in hand positioning and geometry is lending to a slight twitch to the left at break. It isn't so much a problem about reaching the trigger as much as it is just that the Kahr seems to fit my hand shape better. I suppose that's where we will all differ--in hand shape.

I'll try dry firing exercises at the range next time. Thanks all!

 

[Brewer]

They make targets with characteristic miss zones labeled by the poor trigger technique. Of course it’s opposite for L/R handed. Get one for your dominant hand and it’ll tell you on the range how to improve.

A techie option for the same thing: mount this accelerometer to your gun and let your phone diagram your movement on trigger break. Also coaches how to correct and charts your improvement.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsKo2N0vd2k

 

[Supermoto]

They make targets with characteristic miss zones labeled by the poor trigger technique.

Here it is.

 

[jayhitek]

I am a good shot with some of my guns. Great shot with some of them. And then I tried a friend of mines Shield and couldn't hit anything.. It's the gun not me! Screw you for thinking otherwise!