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NRA Mid & Long Range F- Class shooting Karma
- Thread starter bpm990d
- Start date
Ok so here is some more information on exterior ballistics that might be helpful. When we got together at Capital City here in Augusta we got a chance to chronograph our loads. We also recorded our baseline atmospheric conditions. From that I plugged all that informaion into the Berger Ballistics program and came up with some numbers. I actually like to export that information into a spreadsheet and do some additional manipulations. Anyway here is my chart for what we did that day.
I got rid of some of the columns and added a few others. We are not hunting, so I couldn't care less about the Energy. The three blue columns actually are the same thing expressed in different ways. Inches, MOA and Mils. I added a column called MOA (at range). Remember that a Minute of Angle is actually 1.047 inches/ hundred yards. Most people (even myself) shorten it to 1 inch/ hundred yards, but when you get way out there that .047 starts to add up.
I calculated the wind drift based on 1 mile/hour for a full value wind. The reason for this is that drift is directly proportional to wind. If you double the wind, you double the drift. If you figure out that you have a 4 mph wind from 3 O'clock, you can easily figure out what the wind is. Just multiply the drift by the wind velocity. I'll make a post a little later about wind, but I think setting up your table based on 1 mph is a winner.
The last column is the spin drift. Spinning projectiles tend to have a lateral deflection in the direction that they are spinning. So right hand twist barrels have a deflection to 3 O'clock. To be honest, most of this is typically masked by wind drift. It's very rare that you shoot at long ranges in a no wind condition. However it is there and the column gives me an idea on how much there is. A faster twist barrel will produce more spin drift.
How do I use this chart
Well first I need to zero the scope at a known distance. We actually zeroed at 203 yards, so when you look at the chart, you will see that the trajectory is ever so slightly high at 200 yards. Once that is done, you need to index your elevation and windage drum.
As you can see here, they are removable. This Sightron has 15 minutes of adjustment/revolution. Remember that, it will come up later.
Here is a pic of the scope with the knob removed. Note the elevation graduation. Two revolutions up and two down from the middle. It's actually advertised as having 70 moa of adjustment, so it will go more than four complete revolutions.
I indexed the elevation drum for 203 yards. It doesn't really matter where you index it, or what range you zero, as long as you have a system. Here is what the knobs look like when indexed. Right on the lower 1 hash mark, and 0 on the knob. This is my starting elevation, and I will make all my adjustments from here.
So from here, if I need to shoot at a different range I look at the table, and I have my MOA adjustments. In Scarborough we are going to shoot at 300, 500 and 600 yards. This is what the adjustments look like on the scope. See if you can match up my table with the knobs.
300 Yards: The adjustment is 2 1/4 minutes. If you look at the table, I can't really come up exactly 2.31 minutes so I came up 2.25. If my scope had 1/8 minute adjustments I could have come up 2 3/8 minutes and been a little closer.
500 Yards 8 1/4 min.
600 Yards 12 min. Note that I still have not come a complete revolution from my 203 yard zero.
1000 Yards Here is the adjustment that is going to be used when we go to NY to shoot 1000 yards. 31 1/2 minutes. Remember 15 min/revolution? I had to make two complete revolutions on the elevation drum and then come another minute and a half.
Last but not least, remember that this is based off of a model. That is what ballistics programs do. They are only as good as their inputs and sometimes there are other variables that have to be accounted for. For example, is my scopes adjustment perfect? Unlikely that it is. It's probably close, but I have not verified it. How accurate is my chronograph? Honestly I have no idea. Any ways you get the idea. Real world data will always trump a model. I've got a starting point, but the plot sheets I posted links to are going to be my friend.
B
I got rid of some of the columns and added a few others. We are not hunting, so I couldn't care less about the Energy. The three blue columns actually are the same thing expressed in different ways. Inches, MOA and Mils. I added a column called MOA (at range). Remember that a Minute of Angle is actually 1.047 inches/ hundred yards. Most people (even myself) shorten it to 1 inch/ hundred yards, but when you get way out there that .047 starts to add up.
I calculated the wind drift based on 1 mile/hour for a full value wind. The reason for this is that drift is directly proportional to wind. If you double the wind, you double the drift. If you figure out that you have a 4 mph wind from 3 O'clock, you can easily figure out what the wind is. Just multiply the drift by the wind velocity. I'll make a post a little later about wind, but I think setting up your table based on 1 mph is a winner.
The last column is the spin drift. Spinning projectiles tend to have a lateral deflection in the direction that they are spinning. So right hand twist barrels have a deflection to 3 O'clock. To be honest, most of this is typically masked by wind drift. It's very rare that you shoot at long ranges in a no wind condition. However it is there and the column gives me an idea on how much there is. A faster twist barrel will produce more spin drift.
How do I use this chart
Well first I need to zero the scope at a known distance. We actually zeroed at 203 yards, so when you look at the chart, you will see that the trajectory is ever so slightly high at 200 yards. Once that is done, you need to index your elevation and windage drum.
As you can see here, they are removable. This Sightron has 15 minutes of adjustment/revolution. Remember that, it will come up later.
Here is a pic of the scope with the knob removed. Note the elevation graduation. Two revolutions up and two down from the middle. It's actually advertised as having 70 moa of adjustment, so it will go more than four complete revolutions.
I indexed the elevation drum for 203 yards. It doesn't really matter where you index it, or what range you zero, as long as you have a system. Here is what the knobs look like when indexed. Right on the lower 1 hash mark, and 0 on the knob. This is my starting elevation, and I will make all my adjustments from here.
So from here, if I need to shoot at a different range I look at the table, and I have my MOA adjustments. In Scarborough we are going to shoot at 300, 500 and 600 yards. This is what the adjustments look like on the scope. See if you can match up my table with the knobs.
300 Yards: The adjustment is 2 1/4 minutes. If you look at the table, I can't really come up exactly 2.31 minutes so I came up 2.25. If my scope had 1/8 minute adjustments I could have come up 2 3/8 minutes and been a little closer.
500 Yards 8 1/4 min.
600 Yards 12 min. Note that I still have not come a complete revolution from my 203 yard zero.
1000 Yards Here is the adjustment that is going to be used when we go to NY to shoot 1000 yards. 31 1/2 minutes. Remember 15 min/revolution? I had to make two complete revolutions on the elevation drum and then come another minute and a half.
Last but not least, remember that this is based off of a model. That is what ballistics programs do. They are only as good as their inputs and sometimes there are other variables that have to be accounted for. For example, is my scopes adjustment perfect? Unlikely that it is. It's probably close, but I have not verified it. How accurate is my chronograph? Honestly I have no idea. Any ways you get the idea. Real world data will always trump a model. I've got a starting point, but the plot sheets I posted links to are going to be my friend.
B
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Windage Adjustment
It's actually adjusted the same way. You zero on your target and make a guess on what the wind was doing that day. If I remember correctly it was pretty calm. It it was blowing, I would have to make a guess as to the wind, and then index the windage based on a wind call. These knobs work the same way. Loosen them up and then adjust them so they are at zero. This way I can look down and know exactly how much left or right windage I have on. This is really critical in difficult wind conditions.
B
It's actually adjusted the same way. You zero on your target and make a guess on what the wind was doing that day. If I remember correctly it was pretty calm. It it was blowing, I would have to make a guess as to the wind, and then index the windage based on a wind call. These knobs work the same way. Loosen them up and then adjust them so they are at zero. This way I can look down and know exactly how much left or right windage I have on. This is really critical in difficult wind conditions.
B
I'm not sure how many are going from down in your neck of the woods. II would bet that there are a few from Reading coming. I'm probably going to stay over. It's an hour from home, so it's a pain to go back and forth. There are a couple of good places to eat right near the club.
B
Shooting Gear
Here is my list of stuff that you should bring. This is not all inclusive. It's what I could think of. I'm sure some of other experiences competitors will chime in with things I left off. Remember, you are out on the line for the better part of the day. It gets hot in the summer. I like to wear some long sleeves and pants. I also usually bring a crap load of tools in case I need to do some emergency surgery on a rifle.
o Rifle & bipod or rest
o Rear rest or bean bag
o Ammo – 125 rounds for Scarborough
o Scoring optic – you can’t use the optic on your rifle to score for your fellow competitor: Binoculars or spotting scope would be good.
o Mat
o Stool or cart of some kind to haul your gear. The firing line is a ways from the parking lot.
o Microfiber Towels – if it gets wet these are essential
o Shooting coat – something with a little padding to absorb recoil
o Hat – for shooting and for keeping the sun off your head. There is no cover on the line!
o Chamber flag
o Score Book, Clip board, pen & pencil. – when you score you need to do so in pen.
o Rain gear/snivel gear - sometimes it's cold and rainy
o Tarp – for equipment if it rains
o Folding chair and umbrella. Yeah I have an umbrella to keep the sun off my head. Three years ago I was the only one on the line with one. I was the but of jokes and derision from my fellow competitors. Today it's all the rage.
o Hearing protection – for on the line and in the pits
o Eye protection – sunglasses, shooting glasses
o Bug dope & sun screen
o Lunch – there are no lunch breaks in HP. Finger food and snacks works well
o Water –
o Cooler –
o Small thing of baby wipes to wash your hands
B
Here is my list of stuff that you should bring. This is not all inclusive. It's what I could think of. I'm sure some of other experiences competitors will chime in with things I left off. Remember, you are out on the line for the better part of the day. It gets hot in the summer. I like to wear some long sleeves and pants. I also usually bring a crap load of tools in case I need to do some emergency surgery on a rifle.
o Rifle & bipod or rest
o Rear rest or bean bag
o Ammo – 125 rounds for Scarborough
o Scoring optic – you can’t use the optic on your rifle to score for your fellow competitor: Binoculars or spotting scope would be good.
o Mat
o Stool or cart of some kind to haul your gear. The firing line is a ways from the parking lot.
o Microfiber Towels – if it gets wet these are essential
o Shooting coat – something with a little padding to absorb recoil
o Hat – for shooting and for keeping the sun off your head. There is no cover on the line!
o Chamber flag
o Score Book, Clip board, pen & pencil. – when you score you need to do so in pen.
o Rain gear/snivel gear - sometimes it's cold and rainy
o Tarp – for equipment if it rains
o Folding chair and umbrella. Yeah I have an umbrella to keep the sun off my head. Three years ago I was the only one on the line with one. I was the but of jokes and derision from my fellow competitors. Today it's all the rage.
o Hearing protection – for on the line and in the pits
o Eye protection – sunglasses, shooting glasses
o Bug dope & sun screen
o Lunch – there are no lunch breaks in HP. Finger food and snacks works well
o Water –
o Cooler –
o Small thing of baby wipes to wash your hands
B
Pit Service on a KD Range
These are some good pit duty videos I found of YouTube. We use the international scoring system at Scarborough. This is really important because how well you service the target will have an impact on the person shooting. If the shooter is consistent, we strive to have target service in the time it takes the shooter to reload.
Enjoy
B
These are some good pit duty videos I found of YouTube. We use the international scoring system at Scarborough. This is really important because how well you service the target will have an impact on the person shooting. If the shooter is consistent, we strive to have target service in the time it takes the shooter to reload.
Enjoy
B
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J
Jose
New guys, DO NOT underestimate the importance of fast, prompt, accurate target service. Particularly if the person you are pulling for is a good shooter.
Rip off a strip of white and of black pasters. Stick each one under your belt on either side of the buckle so most of the strip hangs down by your legs. Stick a few pasters of each color on your off hand.
If the pits you are working have a good backstop, find the hole dug up by bullets hitting your target and look at it, not at the target. Your neck will thank me later plus it is a LOT easier to tell your target's been hit.
As soon as the first shot hits the target pull it down. Find the hole. Plug it with the spotting disk. Stick the scoring disk in the appropriate hole on the edge of the target. Run the target back up smartlty.
For every other subsequent shot, pull the target down. Find the new hole. Move the shot spotter to it. Paste the old bullet hole. Move the scoring disk to its new proper spot. Move the target up quickly. Replenish your pasters on your hand if needed. Go back to looking at the dirt on the berm, or back at the target if the berm won't let you see impacts (grass, etc).
DO NOT keep the target down while you find more pasters, look for a shot spotter, eat a snack, or any other reason longer than needed to mark the new shot. Get it back in the air re-marked ASAP. Move quickly but efficiently.
People that do not make the best effort to provide fast target service are a**h***s. Yes, I've ran into four or five over the years.
Rip off a strip of white and of black pasters. Stick each one under your belt on either side of the buckle so most of the strip hangs down by your legs. Stick a few pasters of each color on your off hand.
If the pits you are working have a good backstop, find the hole dug up by bullets hitting your target and look at it, not at the target. Your neck will thank me later plus it is a LOT easier to tell your target's been hit.
As soon as the first shot hits the target pull it down. Find the hole. Plug it with the spotting disk. Stick the scoring disk in the appropriate hole on the edge of the target. Run the target back up smartlty.
For every other subsequent shot, pull the target down. Find the new hole. Move the shot spotter to it. Paste the old bullet hole. Move the scoring disk to its new proper spot. Move the target up quickly. Replenish your pasters on your hand if needed. Go back to looking at the dirt on the berm, or back at the target if the berm won't let you see impacts (grass, etc).
DO NOT keep the target down while you find more pasters, look for a shot spotter, eat a snack, or any other reason longer than needed to mark the new shot. Get it back in the air re-marked ASAP. Move quickly but efficiently.
People that do not make the best effort to provide fast target service are a**h***s. Yes, I've ran into four or five over the years.
and people who dont shoot any sort of conventional HP/LongRange wont understand the value of good pit service until they actually have to deal with bad pit service. it is a blessing when you're on a good roll and your puller is quick. its almost painful when you're waiting on a target to come back up when conditions are changing on you (i like to shoot fast...my 22rounds are typically downrange in ~ 10-11minutes). i understand my speed is a pain in the butt for my puller, so i make sure when i pull for them the target isnt in the hole for more than 4-5 seconds. ocassionally i get someone who puts a shot on a line in the white, and the holes are tough to find, but thats rarely.
I did put down on the list of things to have a stool. Some people sit on them, but I always found it easier to bring a folding camp chair. No sense being uncomfortable. You are on the range a good part of the day.
B
B
I got one more question about what can be used for a rest. It's a little confusing so I'll go over some of the basics. Also here is a link to the NRA HP rule book's F-Class section. Much more detailed.
There are two F-Class Rifles allowed in the matches.
F-TR (F-Target Rifle)
.308 or .223 or their military counterparts
18.18 pound weight limit
Must be shot off a bipod and or sling
Rear bag is ok, but a mechanical device that protrudes from the rifle is not.
F-Open
Any caliber under .35
22 pounds
Fore-end not to exceed 76mm (3 inches)
You can use a front mechanical type bench rest
Rear bag is ok, but a mechanical device that protrudes from the rifle is not.
Brakes are not allowed in either class because it can be unfriendly to your fellow competitors.
B
There are two F-Class Rifles allowed in the matches.
F-TR (F-Target Rifle)
.308 or .223 or their military counterparts
18.18 pound weight limit
Must be shot off a bipod and or sling
Rear bag is ok, but a mechanical device that protrudes from the rifle is not.
F-Open
Any caliber under .35
22 pounds
Fore-end not to exceed 76mm (3 inches)
You can use a front mechanical type bench rest
Rear bag is ok, but a mechanical device that protrudes from the rifle is not.
Brakes are not allowed in either class because it can be unfriendly to your fellow competitors.
B
J
Jose
When it comes to rests, in F/TR the front rest needs to stay attached to the rifle. In F/O, it doesn't.
Hey B,
I have a quick question. My finances are very tight, but I really want to get into F/TR. Would an upper on my AR do the job if I were to get something like a WOA in 223 and the best scope I could afford. Or is doing it in this fashion a waste of time. With the new optic rule in NRA HP this could be an option for me to get something that would work for both types of events. I want to shoot this type of sport just for fun and do not care about wining only enjoying and beating myself
Dave
I have a quick question. My finances are very tight, but I really want to get into F/TR. Would an upper on my AR do the job if I were to get something like a WOA in 223 and the best scope I could afford. Or is doing it in this fashion a waste of time. With the new optic rule in NRA HP this could be an option for me to get something that would work for both types of events. I want to shoot this type of sport just for fun and do not care about wining only enjoying and beating myself
Dave
By the rules it would be fine. You just need a bipod and scope. If you get a WOP 26 inch barreled gun, that would be the way to go. I'm not sure if it would be competitive precision wise. I shot a .223 match rifle and it was super accurate, but we were shooting on the regular NRA target and the precision needed for F-Class is a lot more.
If you want to go this weekend, just let me know so I can load some ammo for you.
B
If you want to go this weekend, just let me know so I can load some ammo for you.
B
I would love to go this weekend, But I am away until mid week, I will be back just in time for our match in Cap City this next weekend. Maybe I will try to come up with the money so next year I can play, if nothing else I would have a match upper to use. Dave
Well this is going down in my record book as one of the wettest matches in recent memory. I got soaked to my skives and I had good rain gear on.
I had a good time. I think I have to work on my load, since I was getting some pretty large groups. I would guess the gun was shooting about minute of angle. Not really acceptable in this game. I thought I was shooting a match in Germany, since I kept hearing Nine, Nine, Nine......
Elevation come ups were within 1/4 minute on first shot at 300, 500 & 600 yards. Those come ups were taken right off the table I posted above. I made no correction for atmospherics. I guess those G7s were reasonably correct.
I got a chance to meet June4th who came to his first rifle match. He has a fantastic .308 bolt rifle built by Ed Brown and he shoots it incredibly well for a new rifle shooter. I was impressed. I think he beat me at the 500 yard line. Some of the other guys had obligations come up and could not make it. This was a wet one! Not a bad call to stay home.![[smile]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/001.gif "Smile [smile]")
It's going to take over an hour just to clean the water out of the rifle and optics.
I wanted to shoot some video, but it's just too much with the rain and getting ready to shoot.
300 Yard Targets
300 Yard Line
One of the nicer rifles on the line. I think it was a 264 or some kind.
Making adjustments at the 500 yard line
One of my friends and his rifle. A 6mm BR built on a Savage action and a Shillen barrel.
This is a picture of the target he shot at 600 yards in a downpour. Very nice! He is in contention to win this thing, but needs to show up tomorrow![[rofl]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/013.gif "ROFL [rofl]")
. I on the other had may try and stay dry.
The Pits
600 Yard Line
I had a good time. I think I have to work on my load, since I was getting some pretty large groups. I would guess the gun was shooting about minute of angle. Not really acceptable in this game. I thought I was shooting a match in Germany, since I kept hearing Nine, Nine, Nine......
Elevation come ups were within 1/4 minute on first shot at 300, 500 & 600 yards. Those come ups were taken right off the table I posted above. I made no correction for atmospherics. I guess those G7s were reasonably correct.
I got a chance to meet June4th who came to his first rifle match. He has a fantastic .308 bolt rifle built by Ed Brown and he shoots it incredibly well for a new rifle shooter. I was impressed. I think he beat me at the 500 yard line. Some of the other guys had obligations come up and could not make it. This was a wet one! Not a bad call to stay home.
It's going to take over an hour just to clean the water out of the rifle and optics. I wanted to shoot some video, but it's just too much with the rain and getting ready to shoot.
300 Yard Targets
300 Yard Line
One of the nicer rifles on the line. I think it was a 264 or some kind.
Making adjustments at the 500 yard line
One of my friends and his rifle. A 6mm BR built on a Savage action and a Shillen barrel.
This is a picture of the target he shot at 600 yards in a downpour. Very nice! He is in contention to win this thing, but needs to show up tomorrow
. I on the other had may try and stay dry.
The Pits
600 Yard Line
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June4th
NES Member
Thanks BPM for the invitation! It was well worth the drive. Spotting some shooters targets had me green with envy. I love the competition atmosphere: it gives a sense of urgency and camaraderie that you don't get shooting alone.
Elevation Cheat Sheet
June4th,
Here is the elevation cheat sheet I had yesterday. Good thing it was laminated.
ELEVATION COMEUPS
This formula works for 5.56mm, 7.62mm and .30/06. It will get you on paper and a lot of the time in the black. Caliber, bullet or velocity doesn't matter.
You normally have to touch up the elevation at 600 but the 200 and 300 come ups are usually in the 10 and X rings no matter what rifle you are shooting.
• From a 100 yard zero come up 2 minutes for 200 yards.
• From a 200 yard zero come up 3 minutes for 300 yards.
• From a 300 yard zero come up 7 minutes for 500 yards.
• From a 300 yard zero come up 12 minutes for 600 yards.
• From a 500 yard zero come up 5 minutes for 600 yards.
• From a 600 yard zero come up 10 minutes for 800 yards.
• From a 800 yard zero come up 6 minutes for 900 yards.
• From a 900 yard zero come up 6 minutes for 1000 yards.
June4th,
Here is the elevation cheat sheet I had yesterday. Good thing it was laminated.
ELEVATION COMEUPS
This formula works for 5.56mm, 7.62mm and .30/06. It will get you on paper and a lot of the time in the black. Caliber, bullet or velocity doesn't matter.
You normally have to touch up the elevation at 600 but the 200 and 300 come ups are usually in the 10 and X rings no matter what rifle you are shooting.
• From a 100 yard zero come up 2 minutes for 200 yards.
• From a 200 yard zero come up 3 minutes for 300 yards.
• From a 300 yard zero come up 7 minutes for 500 yards.
• From a 300 yard zero come up 12 minutes for 600 yards.
• From a 500 yard zero come up 5 minutes for 600 yards.
• From a 600 yard zero come up 10 minutes for 800 yards.
• From a 800 yard zero come up 6 minutes for 900 yards.
• From a 900 yard zero come up 6 minutes for 1000 yards.
J
Jose
You are better off putting a service rifle upper on that and shooting conventional highpower.
You will learn a lot more than by having a bipod hold the rifle for you and letting the scope do the aiming.
Jose, Thanks for the info, I already shoot high power I have a RRA NM. Still a marksman, but again I do it just to challenge myself. I was just looking to try a different side of high power with the least amount of cash, 3.5 months out of work has hurt quite a-bit.
Hope to get down to MA and NH to meet some of the others here someday
Thanks again
Dave
J
Jose
Dave, that sucks.
Hope you get back up soon.
Hope you get back up soon.
Jose & B,
I was out of work due to a surgery, Had to have the shoulder repaired due to a calcium buildup and tendon damage. They had to remove a piece a the collar bone, so for now until I rebuild the muscle shooting is out. Could be a year before I am back to normal(whatever that is) anyway thanks for the wishes and hope to meet you on the line soon.
Dave
I was out of work due to a surgery, Had to have the shoulder repaired due to a calcium buildup and tendon damage. They had to remove a piece a the collar bone, so for now until I rebuild the muscle shooting is out. Could be a year before I am back to normal(whatever that is) anyway thanks for the wishes and hope to meet you on the line soon.
Dave
For those that have not shot at Scarborough, I thought I'd post a picture of one of the cool things that they give to all the participants in their bigger matches. It's a 2" Challenge Coin. I think it's a very nice memento for those that have come to shoot the matches.
B
B
