Plate Carriers, Armor and Spalling

derek said:
Cost would be my guess.
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I bought this a while ago:
https://www.uspalm.com/component/magebridge/us-palm-as-plate-carrier.html?Itemid=102

$400, level 4 plates front and back with padding. I didn't think it was expensive...

Also for the people afraid of breaking a plate, you have to be negligent to the max to break one while it's in the carrier. I have never seen or heard of a broken plate in body armor ever, from 2004 till present. We beat our .mil plates to hell while deployed, none of those broke either.

I would never want to take risks with spalling. All it takes is one round of any caliber to hit your plate and blind you (or the person next to you). You're out of the fight for life in that case. I've been hit by tiny pieces of .45 jacket (like the size of a lead pencil tip, but smaller) that bounced off a plate at 25 yards, and if it hit me in the eye I'm sure I would of either of been blinded or needed eye surgery, and that wasnt even close and it was not a high velocity round. Just that little piece was like a bee sting from hell.

Stuff not to skimp on: things that are intended for use in life or death situations. Dont do it, please!

Also keep in mind that a lot of people put things in front of their plates on the carrier. For instance I would have magazines, which would slightly lesson a round depending on caliber.
 
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I can afford to buy ceramics, but I don't because I don't want it to be useless after getting hit once or twice. Also everyone cannot afford $400, so it's as much for them as me.

The spalling can be contained. That's why I'm doing this. I've done one experiment that used less than $15 of materials from my garage. This problem is not going to be a tough one to solve.
 
xtry51 said:
I can afford to buy ceramics, but I don't because I don't want it to be useless after getting hit once or twice. Also everyone cannot afford $400, so it's as much for them as me.

The spalling can be contained. That's why I'm doing this. I've done one experiment that used less than $15 of materials from my garage. This problem is not going to be a tough one to solve.
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They are a little bit more than $15, but what about the "test" IIIA inserts that some stores such as bulletproofme sells? They are $25 each and would probably do quite well for catching spalling. A bit more weight and bulk, but would do the job.
 
Dench said:
Out of curiosity, why are people interested in steel plates over ceramic?
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In a SHTF situation steel plates can take multiple hits. Huge advantage in being able to simply turn the plate over also if you truly feel like you're de-spall layer has been compromised. You can work with both sides of steel plates, not with ceramic. Steel easily outlasts ceramic.
 
Gadsden said:
They are a little bit more than $15, but what about the "test" IIIA inserts that some stores such as bulletproofme sells? They are $25 each and would probably do quite well for catching spalling. A bit more weight and bulk, but would do the job.
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I meant the anti-spall cover I made, not the plates.

I specifically don't like the bulk that the commercially available spall guards add, nor the thickness of the ceramic plates which is another reason I prefer steel.
 
Here is a question, when a ceramic plate is hit, I would think it would absorb the energy a little better by giving or breaking a little, where the steel would transfer it straight to the body. Am I over thinking this, or is it maybe a legit concern?

Awesome thread btw.
 
edmorseiii said:
Here is a question, when a ceramic plate is hit, I would think it would absorb the energy a little better by giving or breaking a little, where the steel would transfer it straight to the body. Am I over thinking this, or is it maybe a legit concern?

Awesome thread btw.
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I think the cracking of the plate would dampen a tiny amount of force compared to the total. Either way its going to feel like someone wacked your plate with a baseball bat.
 
Dench said:
I think the cracking of the plate would dampen a tiny amount of force compared to the total. Either way its going to feel like someone wacked your plate with a baseball bat.
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Is it too much to say that the feeling of the impact, if it is spread out over even a small portion of the plate, would be about the same as the feeling of recoil when firing? The plate is going to weigh more than the gun firing the round (or about the same), so my guess (knowing nothing about it, I'll admit) is that the feeling of the impact shouldn't be a big deal unless the plate fails to distribute the energy effectively.
 
I dont think so. My AK doesnt put 1,500lbs worth of force on my shoulder when i fire it [rofl]

the idea of the plate is to spread that 1,500 out. 1,500 in a 7.62 sized projectile goes through things. 1,500 spread out in the size of a plate does not penetrate the body. It just causes awful bruising and broken ribs.

soldiers equate getting hit in the plates with getting hit by a fastball. Obviously factors like caliber and distance will cause a wide spread of how much energy actually was transferred, but its a lot more than a push on your shoulder like shooting the gun.
 
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Dench said:
I dont think so. My AK doesnt put 1,500lbs worth of force on my shoulder when i fire it [rofl]

the idea of the plate is to spread that 1,500 out. 1,500 in a 7.62 sized projectile goes through things. 1,500 spread out in the size of a plate does not penetrate the body. It just causes awful bruising and broken ribs.

soldiers equate getting hit in the plates with getting hit by a fastball. Obviously factors like caliber and distance will cuase a wide spread of how much energy actualy was transfered, but its a lot more than a push on your shoulder like shooting the gun.
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But firing the gun doesn't cause awful bruising or broken ribs. I have to guess that the plate is deforming and a good amount of the energy is being transmitted at the impact site.

Needless to say, what happens happens and there are people who know first hand the answer to this.
 
economist said:
But firing the gun doesn't cause awful bruising or broken ribs. I have to guess that the plate is deforming and a good amount of the energy is being transmitted at the impact site.

Needless to say, what happens happens and there are people who know first hand the answer to this.
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this guy has a write up about it
http://www.chuckhawks.com/recoil_table.htm

so according to this an AK is coming back with 7lbs of force on your shoulder. so between the guns weight, the springs and the size of the stock, and burn time, thats what the shooter feels. The bullet itself has 1,500ish given its speed and weight.

another explaination:
You're confusing momentum with energy. First, a couple equations:

momentum = mass * velocity
energy = 1/2 * mass * velocity ^ 2 (velocity squared).

The short answer to your question is that the shooter and the recipient, assuming the shooter holds on to the gun and the recipient stops the bullet, is that they both experience the same total push.

However, the dissipated energy is very different for the two. A firearm expels a round by accelerating the round in one direction while using its own weight to "push off". You don't really feel the recoil until the bullet is long gone and the firearm continues moving towards you.

The firearm weighs an order of magnitude more than the bullet. You can expect them to have theoretically identical and realistically similar momentums since they separated as an enclosed system and with minimal external interference.

The difference comes along when you consider velocity. The force of the expanding powder pushed forward on the bullet and backwards on the gun over a finite period of time with a varying force (we won't get into differential equations this time around). This imparted identical momentum to the two units, but since the gun weighs an order of magnitude more than the bullet, the bullet was moving much faster. The faster, lighter bullet has far more kinetic energy than the heavy gun.

Some simple numbers to illustrate....

Suppose your gun weighs 100 units of weight and your bullet weighs one. Your bullet takes off at 500 units of distance per second.

Momentum of the bullet = 1 * 500 = 500
The gun's momentum is also 500, by definition.
The gun's speed = 500 / 100, or 5 units of distance per second. This is a function of the ratio between the weight of the gun and the weight of the bullet and will always vary linearly.

Now, look at energy. The gun, moving at 5 units per second, has an energy of (.5)(500)(5^2), or 6250. The bullet has an energy of (.5)(1)(500^2), or 125000. In our simple example, that equates to 20 times the kinetic energy of the gun.

Without getting any crazier, you can look at an impact in terms of what is called the "impulse". The impulse can be displayed as a graphed line showing pressure over time. The slow, large gun makes a relatively long gentle impulse against your hands. The small, fast bullet makes a much sharper impulse against its target. The integral of both impulses (the area under the graph, representing total force to slow down the object) is the same in both cases although the shapes will be much different.

Hope that helps.
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http://thefiringline.com/forums/archive/index.php?t-389317.html

Someone else in the above thread was saying the math worked .357 magnum out to being a ~80 mph (something around there) fastball in power, which is why soft body armor always leaves a killer bruise along with broken rips / organ damage potential. Ceramic plates will deform under the impact area 1/8-1/2 inch from what I've seen (all depending on the actual impact force of course).

Thats why shooting things like the 340PD is a nightmare. that gun is ULTRA light and the bullet is pretty large for a pistol cal. The weight between the gun and bullet is much closer than a normal .357 full sized revolver, therefor the gun has awful recoil that is painful to most to shoot. for me its like clapping my hands together as hard as I can.
 
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Yea they are thick, but as someone whos worn them overseas they aren't thaaat thick, not really a valid complaint. If you are getting shot multiple times in the chest in different scenarios and cant find some more body armor stuffs already gone way wrong.

I'm all for developement of new things but body armor is one of those things I'd probably just buy unless it there is a really scientific series of tests done on many samples being nade the same way. So I'm staying tuned

Mike

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2
 
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So is there any news to report here? Denim + gorilla tape seems to work but there's still the reinforcement to try for closer to edge hits...
 
xtry51 said:
I can afford to buy ceramics, but I don't because I don't want it to be useless after getting hit once or twice.
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Not to resurrect (though it wasn't me, technically) - but what reputable source says that ceramics are useless after a couple hits? I've actually read that that's not the case at all.
 
I've still been negligent in my research duties, but it hasn't been forgotten or shelved [grin]

All ceramics are different. The really high end dragon skin armor is supposedly the best thing out there right now. The individual discs are supposed to each be able to take 2 hits of 7.62. There's plenty of video out there on testing ceramics and the results seam to be hit or miss. With the high cost of ceramic and gained bulk, I'm personally just not interested in the expense or questions of performance.
 
This guy is using 1/4" thick neoprene rubber with a 60 durometer hardness rating. For his test he just duct taped it to a piece of AR500 steel. Around the 6 minute mark he get a nice hit on the center of the rubber section, no spall.



I can find 36 x 12 x 1/8" 60 durometer rubber on eBay, I'm guessing that two sheets of that would work? It'd be enough to cover two 10x12 plates and two 6x6 plates with some left over. Around $37 shipped for 2 sheets.

I have no idea what that weighs, and there is likely still the edge protection issues to work out. Still in that guy's test the strip of AR500 wasn't all that wide, and he got a nice center hit with no spall escaping.
 
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My previous results seem to point to more layers being more effective. I would agree using two layers would work well. Not sure what the weight per square yard is on 60D.
 
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xtry51 said:
It's not horrendous when you consider the overall weight of a carrier with steel plates and 6-8 full mags, an IFAK and a water bladder.
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No, perhaps 10-12% more weight. But it's substantial compared to the weight you reported for your tests.
 
why not just get kevlar material by the yard and then wrap it with that?

I know the scope of this was pretty much what you had on hand ( idea being kevlar might not be available when shit goes down)
 
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The shot straight on spalling tests are interesting but you should consider testing it at different angles. Angles such as the ones that our bodies would be in if we were leaning in to our rifles shooting back.
 
ztargetshooter said:
The shot straight on spalling tests are interesting but you should consider testing it at different angles. Angles such as the ones that our bodies would be in if we were leaning in to our rifles shooting back.
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In that case the spall is directed downwards and away from vital organs, other than your junk. It's still a containment issue regardless of angle, though I will try more oblique angles once I settle on a direction.
 
xtry51 said:
In that case the spall is directed downwards and away from vital organs, other than your junk. It's still a containment issue regardless of angle, though I will try more oblique angles once I settle on a direction.
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Does anybody make kevlar cups? [laugh] .. sort of serious..
 

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