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Polymer 80 frames, etc.
- Thread starter Rob Boudrie
- Start date
So now there's all these unserialized frames already out there, no 4473's...
Is it now considered to have been been acquired illegally?
What is the status of a "privately made firearm" based on a p80 or equivalent that's already completed, will it be required to be serialized because it's no longer "homemade"? Would seem if it's now considered the same as a completed frame, then you didn't actually "make" it...
If someone has an uncompleted one and is a PP, are they now a felon?
How would these be grandfathered?
Is it now considered to have been been acquired illegally?
What is the status of a "privately made firearm" based on a p80 or equivalent that's already completed, will it be required to be serialized because it's no longer "homemade"? Would seem if it's now considered the same as a completed frame, then you didn't actually "make" it...
If someone has an uncompleted one and is a PP, are they now a felon?
How would these be grandfathered?
Marty McFly
NES Member
Yeah . More of a get em while they're hot post
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The issue is not "is an uncompleted lower a firearm" but "are the listed items readily converted to frames with little skill or expense and not requiring expensive tools?"
Marty McFly
NES Member
Mesatchornug
NES Member
They're not changing the definition of firearm. They're basically reversing their earlier determination letter, where they said it's not "readily converted" to a firearm. That is - within the common jargon - they're 81% complete as sold.
This is shouldering braces all over again...
First, it's not a ruling. Second, this letter only applies to Glock-style 80% frames, not AR- type. There are other work arounds, and the 0% is a great solution to a similar but different issue.
I read that as taking about the ones in stores and warehouses right now...
namedpipes
NES Member
I would guess that someone engaged in the business of manufacturing or selling 80% lowers is about to be screwed over by the unconstitutional actions of the ATF.
Anyone that has purchased or completed one, you've already, I'm sure, complied with local laws like efa10.
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KBCraig
NES Member
Their previous guidance was that they were not firearms, but if sold with jigs and tooling, they became "readily convertible", and thus firearms.
Now they're saying it doesn't matter if jigs or tools are included: they're just straight-up firearms.
CatSnoutSoup
NES Member
ATF letter to FFL targets two specific brands/models and generic “Glock types”
allen-1
NES Member
What I'm saying, or trying to say, is that the letter that the ATF just released changes the classification of Poly80's and similar from a "not-firearm" to a firearm, and thus they now have to be serialized by the manufacturer. That serialization requirement flows down the line on all of the transfers from manufacturer to distributer to retailer to consumer.
Poly80's and their like are no longer "privately made firearms", as the starting point is now a firearm.
So, I'm not attempting to state that PMFs must be serialized - I'm stating that Poly80's and similar are no longer a non-firearm starting point to construct a PMF - they're now a firearm.
Which is of course ridiculous.
namedpipes
NES Member
I see the nuance now.
I guess next they'll have to figure out how to classify a 3d printer as a firearm.
Ron Jablonski
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No, I don't believe so. As I understand it this guidance (not law) pertains to the sale and transfer of them going forward.
allen-1
NES Member
I don't think so.
There's nothing in that document that addresses 80% kits or completed firearms that are in end-users' posession; other than the fact that they're now considered "firearms".
So, that Poly80 in your safe, (completed or not), is now a firearm. Let's not forget that there are older firearms out there that aren't serial numbered. These are simply newer ones that aren't serial numbered. The only place I see a potential issue is if you transfer it. And quite frankly, I'm not sure whether it would have to be serialized at that point. In GA you can do a face to face sale without paperwork. In CT, "ghost guns" are now illegal to purchase, although they're still legal to posess if you had them prior to their law, (yeah - prove when you had it??).
namedpipes
NES Member
Not a good idea as you describe it.
You can sell personally manufactured firearms (even without a serial number) but you can't do it for commercial reasons. You can get sick of this "POS" and sell it to buy something else you like, though.
namedpipes
NES Member
No federal requirement to serialize it, but some states like CA require serialization on completion, or like the MA requirement to document the "transfer" with an efa10. Not actually sure if any other states do that. It would be a bad state like NY or NJ if so...
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Mesatchornug
NES Member
the FA10 doesn't require serialization...
Ban aluminum!
No more beer cans!
namedpipes
NES Member
Correct. I used it as an example of a state law that applies when building firearms. I'll edit that for clarity.
allen-1
NES Member
CT 2019:
Public Act 19-6, will prohibit anyone from manufacturing a firearm without subsequently obtaining and engraving or permanently affixing on it a unique serial number or other identification mark provided by the Department of Emergency Services and Public Protection.
LINK: Governor Lamont Signs Laws Banning Ghost Guns and Strengthening Firearm Storage in Motor Vehicles
CT 2023?:
Any legislation related to guns will have to pass through the Judiciary Committee, whose co-chair, state Rep. Steve Stafstrom, D- Bridgeport, told CT Insider this week focused on making changes to the laws that prohibited the possession of ghost guns in 2019 and high-capacity magazines, which were included within the 2013 assault weapon ban.
The term “ghost guns” refers to weapons manufactured without a proper serial number, often using at-home methods, that can make them nearly impossible to trace. Connecticut law requires those weapons be numbered, marked, or engraved by the state Department of Emergency Services and Public Protection, however it grandfathered weapons that were built before 2019.
Lawmakers last year tried to close that loophole on ghost guns, which Stafstrom said allows someone to go online, purchase a piece of firearm, put it together in their garage, and avoid Connecticut background check and serial registration number requirements.
The ban has not stopped ghost guns from turning up on Connecticut streets or being used repeatedly in the commission of a crime, Stafstrom said, underscoring a major reason for tightening the law. Stafstrom said the proposal to remove grandfather provision is backed by police departments around the state.
“It’s an urgent public safety priority to remove the grandfather provision on ghost guns,” he said.
LINK: Ghost guns, high-capacity magazines among top issue for CT lawmakers in 2023
They say they’re still good to go due to the injunction.
ATF RULE UPDATE
US FEDERAL COURT HAS STRUCK DOWN THE ENTIRE ATF “FINAL RULE” (2021R-05F - Definition of “Frame or Receiver”...) AS UNLAWFUL
www.80percentarms.com
Mesatchornug
NES Member
That depends on whether MA requires items that are firearms to federal (but not state) standards to be locked up...
