Purchasing a high accuracy firearm for actual use

[Nikita]

This is a spinoff of the postings on high accuracy .22 handguns, but it's something that applies to all high accuracy guns, including rifles, SMG, MG, and whatever.

For what follows, high accuracy is no worse than .2 MOA for 5 rounds at 25M for a handgun, 0.15MOA or better at 50M for a .22lr or at 300M for any center fire gun.

The high accuracy guns usually are rather expensive. For a pistol this can be from $300 (GSP) to $9500 (Korth, some Hammerli 208). For a rifle, $250 (Walther KK) to $12,000+ is the price range, easily (Tanner, Bleiker, or G&E rifles).

These guns often are much (or much, much) heavier than the standard gun (with a few exceptions in the pistols like the new Pardini and Morini), with extremely light triggers (down to less than 1oz trigger pull, where you can't even feel the trigger). Some have unusual sighting systems (Steyr Match free pistol, Tanner rifles), or require special lubricants for maintenance and special cleaning procedures or reassembly methods.

Due to both cost, and oddities of using them, it really is best if you can try them out on a range under supervision before purchase. Even an extremely experienced shooter usually is better with supervision with some of these guns, because they can operate so differently for loading, cocking, safeties (if they have any at all), and trigger pull weight. This is true especially if not used to what happens with trigger pulls in the 1-2 oz range.

If trying them out is not possible, at least be sure you have honest, experienced advice. Usually that advice is best if it comes from someone who does not care if you buy the gun, or not. That can be the dealer or seller who really might not care if you buy it or not. Or it might be someone else who has used these, and comparable guns.

 

[warwickben]

What do you think of the ruger American .22 bolt gun?

 

[Nikita]

American rifles

What do you think of the ruger American .22 bolt gun?

My apology to all who might be offended by these comments. I don't claim to know everything about the Ruger, and might be incorrect in my assessments. I'll just try to state my reasons, as best I can.

From my point or view (background briefly stated in the section on accurate handguns), the Ruger is a very good rifle, including the American .22. Even with best ammunition, the barrel design, bedding and trigger will not let it come close to a 0.2 or 0.15 MOA accuracy. If one were to compare it to other American rifles, it is as good as any, and better than some. Compared to the lower cost Walther KK, it is in a class below. The Walther KK single shot will put 5 rounds within a half to 3/4" circle at 50 meters routinely, and can be used with either the diopter (pinhole) sights or scope. Among iron sights, the diopters essentially create a lens effect without a lens but do require fairly good light. The Walther OEM diopters from the 1960s are somewhat better than the Lymans of today.

The Walther trigger is much better, and on many of them, adjustable. The Anschutz 54 has a better trigger, usually adjustable, and better sights, with a slightly more accurate barrel. For those guns, one is in the $300 to $500 range with luck, 600 without.

The Walther and Anschutz magazine fed .22 are not as accurate as the single shot guns, but still are more accurate than the Ruger.

The big plus on the Ruger is that spare parts are available, but can be very hard to obtain for the Walther.

If one wants a NIB rifle, the Walthers, Anschutz and the like are just too expensive, unless one simply must have a new rifle with excellent accuracy.

In the end, excellent, good, or bad depends on your priorities.

Ease of sparts, NIB rather than used, American made: The Ruger is one of several very good to excellent choices.

Accuracy: second rate at best, compared to Walther or Anschutz, used in the 300-600 range. Trigger, third rate.

Some people turn to CZ or TOZ instead. I don't recommend that due to durability and accuracy. My experience has been that a good used Walther or Anschutz is better at about or close to the same price. Others, however favor either of these ex-Soviet items highly. Walther had tried the CZ barreled actions for resale under their name. The ones they did sell (KK100) were very fine rifles, but overall it did not work well. They had to reject so many due to accuracy or quality problems.

What about price vs quality? Remember that over the life of the rifle, or for many over the next few years, the cost of the ammunition will be close to that or greater than the cost of the rifle.

If you have access to the rifle model (or better yet, to the actual rifle you'll be buying), see if you can test fire perhaps 10 rounds or more of good quality ammunition from it at 50 yards. If all bulets are within the cirumference of a nickle, the rifle has good accuracy. If any one is outside of it, not so good. If one of the shots is well outside the rest, often the problem is first shot inaccuracy, which can be due to either poorly done headspace and bolt clearanaces, or more often, residual barrel stress, poor bedding of the action, or rarely, receiver residual stresses.

In a mass produced rifle like the Ruger, there can be a very wide variation in accuracy between the guns. As a result, some can be superb, some terrible, and some intermediate from the same production run. As a result, if you can test the rifle you will be buying, that would be useful if accuracy is desired. With Walther, Anschutz, or Tanner, they all are pretty equal, and pre-tested individually. With Ruger and Savage, pretested yes, but not within strict standards.

As a result, general comments about this rifle are only general. A specific rifle may be far better, or far worse than the average, as there is wide variation even in a single production run.

The US Army noted this with the Springfields and Garands during WWII, and used this to select the sniper rifles. H&K does the same for its sniper rifles, selecting the best of the herd for fitting with target triggers as match or sniper rifles. Anschutz and Walther do it in the guns they give to the German national team. They select the best barrels and rifles, and reserve for the national teams and competitors, and not for general sale.

Also, it does take about 100-200 rounds for any gun to show maximum accuracy. I think the reason relates to residual stress patterns in both the frame and receiver, as well as interaction with the stock, rather than simple mechanical function. I've noticed this even in single shot pistols where there is no mechanical break-in issue.

In the end, the Ruger may be exactly perfect as a balance between needs. For pure accuracy, it's not the first choice. If choices are limited to American made guns only, it is one of the better ones, but no absolutely clear cut advantage over the others.

 

[white feather]

Ammo test. Nothing quite in the 0.15 MOA at 50 meters. I know MOA > inches and 50 meters is > 50 yards, they should cancel out in both directions. Of course, that Bleiker might be the problem.


http://www.accurateshooter.com/guns-of-week/22lr-rimfire-ammo-comparison-test/

I am interested in a good .22.
White Feather

 

[Boghog1]

What about building your own using a 10/22 receiver?

 

[Nikita]

As mentioned in the ammo test report, there is an interaction between the ammunition and the specific gun (vibration patterns). As a result, the results for any one gun often do not transfer or translate exactly for another.

The test series cited above is pretty much in accord with what most have found with the various brands of ammunition cited, with the proviso as above: different guns behave differently, with the same ammunition.

There are a number of "scientific" -- i.e., technical and statistical problems with how these tests were done. Those problems make them a useful piece of information, but far from the Word of the Lord, or even a precise technical and scientific assessment of the ammunitions tests.

The Bleiker is one of several very high accuracy .22 rifles, and therefore is a useful test gun. There are some issues with the Bleiker design that lead some to prefer the Tanner or G&E .22 rifles over the Bleiker, but that said, the Blieker still is one of the 3 best commercially available rifles. The German National Team Walther and Anschutz rifles probably are equal to the Bleiker, but those Team rifles are not available commercially.

All of these guns also have superb, adjustable triggers, and superb diopter (pinhole) sights.

If one wants a high accuracy .22 rifle, in general the single shot rifles are significantly more accurate than the repeat fire ones. With the Tanner, Bleiker, and G&E rifles, the difference between the magazine fed, and single shot guns is small but detectable easily. With the Anschutz and Walther, it is not huge, but detectable very easily.

For those wanting a high accuracy rifle (any caliber), cost is a big factor. The Bleiker, Tanner, and G&E rifles new are well over $5000, with the sights and barrel tuners adding significantly to the cost.

In the used market, they are very scarce, but do appear in .22 in the several thousand range, and up.

For those wanting accuracy close to the Tanner or Bleiker in a .22, the older Walther KK series and Anschutz rifles based on the model 54 are the best option. The prices can range from about $300 at the low end, to about $2400 and up with adjustable metal stocks, diopter sights, and the like. Those based on the Anschutz 64 are good, but not as good, and are difficult to swap for an adjustable metal stock if you ever want one. Unfortunately, in the Center Fire rifles, almost nothing equals them except for the Keppeler and Hammer rifles from Germany.

If anyone would like images and some idea of used market pricing of the Anschutz and Walther rifles, PM me with an email address to which I can send the images. I can not post them on the website as a low level user. Also please note, for the purposes of these web discussions, I am not advertising rifles as a dealer.

As noted in the ammunition test, a barrel tuner may be needed to obtain best accuracy. The barrel tuners would as an inverted pendulum, setting up a counter-vibration pattern that "cancels" the vibration from the firing of the cartridge. It's the same idea and method as a noise-cancelling headset. Unfortunately, the barrel tuning is specific to a single type of ammunition, at a specific ambient temperature.

In general, the old Walther KK and Anschutz 54 will provide end accuracy reasonably close to the Bleiker, especially if ammunition for the gun is optimized. The Barrel Tuner will help further, but can not be used easily with Mannlicher style stocks.

There really aren't any standard American made .22 rifles that can reach the accuracy of the old Walther KK or Anschutz rifles. The adjustable, true target triggers of the Anschutz and Walther rifles, and the high quality diopter sights also help a great deal in actual shooting use, beyond the accuracy of the rifle per se from a fixed machine -rest position.

 

[Nikita]

What about building your own using a 10/22 receiver?

In theory, it might be possible after 10,000 hours of work and lots of expertise. Realistically, it's almost impossible. One might be able to find a 10/22 with that accuracy by sorting through 10,000 of the guns to find the most accurate, but even that would be dicey.

The problems are that the magazine opening for the receiver changes the vibration patterns significantly, and adversely. The same for any gas porting that might be there or any gas tubes, if the gun is a gas operated sem-auto. There also are vibration interactions between the barrel and receiver that need to be "nulled out", and issues regarding the precision of the locking of the bolt whatever serves as a bolt in the gun.

The barrel-receiver match also is somewhat unpredictiable. Gunmakers who make these rifles from high precision receivers and barrels find that about 1/4 to 1/5 of the time, even though the barrel and receiver seemed perfect, the combination has an adverse vibration interaction, that can not be removed by bedding, barrel tuners, etc, and the barrel needs to be tossed.

Finally, if one starts with the Ruger, there is the almost-insurmountable problem of the trigger quality compared to that of the high quality match rifle, unless one can find an aftermarket one of desired quality.

Yes, it can be done.

However, it's dicey, and can consume huge amounts of time and unforseen costs.

 

[Nikita]

Ammo test. Nothing quite in the 0.15 MOA at 50 meters. I know MOA > inches and 50 meters is > 50 yards, they should cancel out in both directions. Of course, that Bleiker might be the problem.


http://www.accurateshooter.com/guns-of-week/22lr-rimfire-ammo-comparison-test/

I am interested in a good .22.
White Feather

Translation of minute of arc:

Width of target impact area is tangent(angle) x distance to target. Convert to inches.

1 minute of arc is 1/60 of a degree. 0.1 minutes of arc is 1/600 of a degree.

A 0.2 MOA gun in .22 at 50 yards puts all bullets within a circle whose outside (perimiter) is approximately 0.6". A 0.15 MOA gun does it within a circle of approximately 0.4-0.5", counting for the ragged edges. The diameter of the circle (around the aim point) is 2x the result from the MOA calculation plus half the diameter of the bullet itself.

It's not quite all bullets through precisely the same hole at 0.15 MOA, but pretty close.

 

[white feather]

Translation of minute of arc:

Width of target impact area is tangent(angle) x distance to target. Convert to inches.

1 minute of arc is 1/60 of a degree. 0.1 minutes of arc is 1/600 of a degree.

A 0.2 MOA gun in .22 at 50 yards puts all bullets within a circle whose outside (perimiter) is approximately 0.6". A 0.15 MOA gun does it within a circle of approximately 0.4-0.5", counting for the ragged edges. The diameter of the circle (around the aim point) is 2x the result from the MOA calculation plus half the diameter of the bullet itself.

It's not quite all bullets through precisely the same hole at 0.15 MOA, but pretty close.

I thought you meant ( group - diameter = .2 moa). At 50 yards one MOA = .5024". To me, .2 MOA meant .2 X .5024 = 0.1048. That is near impossible. I have a 64, 541s, 40x, and 82g. All fairly good low cost rifles. I just got the 40x for < $700 in December. I would like to get into BR 50. An anschutz 2013 would be nice but if I sold all four, I would still be light on cash. Interested in getting a tuner for the 40x. PM inbound.
White Feather

 

[Nikita]

I thought you meant ( group - diameter = .2 moa). At 50 yards one MOA = .5024". To me, .2 MOA meant .2 X .5024 = 0.1048. That is near impossible...... I would like to get into BR 50. An anschutz 2013 would be nice but if I sold all four, I would still be light on cash. Interested in getting a tuner for the 40x. ...White Feather

It gets confusing. In some old artillery terms, MOA was used to estimate the size of the target at a given range. For gun accuracy, there is some variation in how the term is used, but usually it means the spread of the bullets around a center point, which can be a "theoretical" center, the actual aim point, or the estimated center of the spread. Some measure the scatter from that point to the center of impact of each bullet. That can be difficult, so the other measure is to look at the outermost perimeter of each bullet hole. If that is done, the radius (half the diameter) needs to be subtracted on each side to "match" where the center of the bullet would be.

As to the Anschutz 2013,there isn't much difference in accuracy between any of the 54 series, from the oldest to the current 20xx group. With the 1400 series and on, the triggers and factory diopters were better, making them easier to use in actual shooting, but the older triggers and diopters are quite good as well. Metal stocks (like the 2018 stock) are available for all of them. Tesro makes some lower cost but excellent ones, Keppeler makes some superb ones that span a price range from just above Tesro, to about that of the Anschutz. The Keppeler stocks are better, in my view, than the Anschutz for their K09 model, and equal or better for the K06. Some however, feel the wood stocks are better than the metal in any case. The Keppeler stocks are unique in that the same stock can be used with a number of rifles with an adapter plate.

Some also like the Anschutz 2007/2013 rifle, which hybridizes features of both into one rifle. Another option is the Walther KK series. Also, these rifles with the Otokar stocks have been very good result, but that stock is very pricey.

If anyone wants images and an idea of the used prices, PM an email address to me and I'll send images and examples of what could be available in these guns used, but excellent condition. New ones are quite pricey, and also require a few hundred rounds before fully accuracy is achieved.

 

[dcmdon]

Boghog,

While nikita clearly knows more about this stuff than I do, he has actually missed a big reason why a 10/22 will never be as accurate as a bolt gun of similar quality. Thats because the fact that its semi-auto requires a larger, longer chamber than a bolt gun to ensure reliability.

The Bentz chamber is about the tightest chamber you will find on a semi-auto. And even these are sometimes too tight to be reliable with some ammo.

I'm a huge fan of Lilja barrels, they have a good discussion of these issues right here:

http://www.riflebarrels.com/products/chamber_info.htm

If you want an accurate 10/22 type rifle, check out Tony Kidd's web site coolguyguns.com

For about the cost of a stock Anschutz, you can have a gun that is just as accurate and much more fun.

Don

 

[SheepDog_B]

Volquartsen anyone?

https://www.volquartsen.com/

I plan on getting the LLV competition upper at some point for my MKII for my Bullseye league. Then the scorpion frame.

In my experience with .22 target shooting, if you have a high end barrel, it's going to come down to the ammunition.
I use CCI strictly for bullseye and I've noticed some "flyers" from bench shooting it as well...

JM2C

 

[Nikita]

Accuracy issues, chamber and barrel

Thanks for the barrel and chamber links and ideas.

My associates and I have done a number of trials and experiments with chamber size and relationship to accuracy over the decades. Most were intentional, some were accidedntal.

Chamber clearances and dimensions certainly play a role. This certainly is why a few manufacturers have offered ammunition with different casing sizes for different chambers. Overall, our results were that while chamber size is relevant, the main factors are those that I had mentioned, by a factor of 5-10. When the chamber is fluted internally, the situation is even more complex.

As to the cost and fun ratio, what's fun for one person may or may not be fun for another. If the semi-auto .22 is the fun factor, then even a CISM bolt action can't compete. It's a different world and a different amusement park.

As to cost, I don't know what the cost of a specially barrelled Ruger will run. The base Walther KK starts around $400 used, the M54 Anschutz around $500. The Ruger may well be far less than that. As to equally, accurate .... still some doubts about that. I'd love to see an image of the test target with 5 rounds within a 0.5" perimeter circle at 50 Meters from a 10/22 or any other Ruger. The basic old Walther KK is very close to an Anschutz 2013 in accuracy, not not quite and harder to use with that accuracy due to the triggers and sights..

As to the role of barrels in target shooting, yes they are important. However, out of a some thousands of rifles produced, our results have been pretty consistent, that with the best possible barrel and best possible action, about 20% of the rifles still are failures (do not achieve 0.2 MOA) and the barrel needs to be "scrapped" or reused for a different action combination. That's before bedding or floating of the barrel come into issue. Keppeler found in his studies that the position of the action and barrel in the stock also are very important, and that has been the finding from Tanner, Gruening, and Bleiker for high accuracy. Steyr carried this to the extreme in their match pistol.

Ammunition is important. The list posed by one of the other users is a good summary of experience in testing. However, SD (standard deviation) of the test is very important. CCI and Federal generally fail on that (inconsistency within the lot).

 

[Nikita]

Volquartsen website

Thanks for the link to the V-website. In the image of their .22 semiauto, there is an odd discrepancy. If the holes are .17 caliber, the group diameter is significantly more than .4", and would be significantly worse than what one would expect from an Anschutz or Walther. If it is truly at .4" diameter in the greatest diameter across, it would be at an average Anschutz. The 0.4" may be a radius. If so, it is significantly worse than what one would expect from an Anschutz or Walther with test ammunition.

However, it does not appear to be a 0.4" diameter, using the holes as the internal measure of the overall size. Also, the rifle is unusually light compared to the Anschutz or Walther rifles.

 

[dcmdon]

Nikita,

Check out the coolguyguns.com website of Tony Kidd.

The guns are nominally 10/22s, but not a single part is actually a Ruger part. He makes all the parts himself. Further, he eliminates one of the design weaknesses when seeking high accuracy out of a 10/22, the barrel retaining lug. Tony threads the barrel right into the receiver, as it should be done.

Tony's two stage trigger is considered to be the best there is for the 10/22, allowing adjustment down to 6 ounces with perfect safety and reliability.

Finally, check out his bio and you will see why he is so good at making accurate guns.

One other thought. I've been thinking of buying a new Anschutz but then got the idea of purchasing a used one for less money and putting the money towards a Lilja barrel. What are your thoughts on a new gun vs a used re-barreled gun.

 

[Nikita]

Thanks for the links and website reference.

Before looking at what's there, one interesting thing is that in bolt action rifles, the 4 completely and absolutely superior ones (Tanner, Gruenig, Bleiker, Hammer) all use receivers where the bolt does not lock into the barrel. I think Keppeler also does this, but would need to recheck the details (the 5th absolutely superior rifle). This was a central part of the design, to de-couple vibration patterns and maintain the headspace at a consistent interval.

As to a used Anschutz and rebarrel, a few thoughts. The Anschutz barrels are among the best made, especially if you get a used Supermatch 56 or a xx1x model number. (The old legend of X serial numbers being better is not entirely correct). The lifespan of the barrel is very very long in terms of number of rounds.

As a result, you might get an equal quality barrel (or not), but not likely it will be better. If you get an old Anschutz, best to test the accuracy first. If not sufficiently accurate, look at why (barrel not free floating, bedding problem, bolt clearance problem, crown issue, etc). Then look at the barrel length. At 50 M, sometimes simply shortening the barrel solves the problem, or using a tuner. Many of the best 50M guns use an approximately 55cm barrel, including some of the German national team rifles. Also, before replacing the barrel due to poor accuracy, consider a counterbore at the muzzle, if you are going to toss the barrel anyway. Finally, some of the very early Walther and Anschutz barrels were not thermally chilled. It is very inexpensive to supercool the barrels yourself, or inexpensive to have it done.

Replacing the barrel is a thought, but as mentioned above, even with the best barrel and best receiver, and perfect installation, about 20-25% of the time, the combination does not work.

Finally, if you are looking at a 100M rifle, some prefer longer barrels.

In general, I would not suggest getting a new Anschutz. The used ones on the market tend to be superb guns, and the quality has not improved over the decades: it was extremely high in the past. The newer versions (1405 and after) use better triggers and better diopters, but the basic rifle is the same otherwise. The old (and new) heavy barrel versions do offer some mild improvement, but that is not related to age but to the barrel. Also, at least 200 rounds are needed for the barrel to attain full accuracy.

My suggestion would be a used Anschutz in any event. If you do this, remember that the 20xx series require a different stock or (if a Keppeler stock) a different base plate. The 64 based guns (or xx03 series) can not use the stocks for the 54 series, if you want to use an updated stock in the future.

Although I don't agree with this personally, many feel the new metal stocks, especially those from Keppeler and Otakar, create an improvement in shooter accuracy. The negative side of this is the vibration coupling between a metal stock and the action. This is reflected in Tanner's approach. While I view it as correct, the metal stocks do provide a range of adjustment that can not be attained in the wood ones.

Old Walthers can be less expensive than the Anschutz. Quality is very similar, but except for the KK200-300 series, only the Keppeler stocks can be used on those if you want to go to a metal stock, and repair parts are scarce prior to the KK200 group.

If you want an idea of what might be available in used Anschutz guns, I can send some info, but would need an email address. The attachment limitations on the discussion group will not permit my adding it to the discussion group.

The summary: I would not suggest a new gun, but would recommend a used gun. Rebarrel only if absolutely needed, as it will be dicey as to whether the new one will be any better than the old, or even equal to it. As mentioned in another post, if possible buy the used one from someone who will let you test it first on a range, and compare it to other rifles.

 

[Nikita]

Nikita,

Check out the coolguyguns.com website of Tony Kidd. ..... Further, he eliminates one of the design weaknesses when seeking high accuracy out of a 10/22, the barrel retaining lug. Tony threads the barrel right into the receiver, as it should be done.

Tony's two stage trigger is considered to be the best there is for the 10/22, allowing adjustment down to 6 ounces with perfect safety and reliability. ....

Thanks for suggesting the website and source. Your comments are quite correct... the barrel mounting system of the 10/22 would be a significant source of inaccuracy, either with time alone or as the receiver heats up during firing. The system used is much better. It was hard to tell what exactly was the accuracy of the guns. The comments just gave a shot to shot spacing on a target. At best, it would not equal the Anschutz or Walther rifles. At worst, it still is better than the standard 10/22 but no where near a good bolt action rifle.

The web site did remind me of one semi-auto .22 rifle that is extremely accurate. The GSP rifle. There are two versions of this gun, one from Walther and Earl Sheehan, the other from B&W in Germany. Both are roughly equal in accuracy. 5, 8 or 10 round magazines, trigger is adjustable for position, and pull. Depending on which trigger group is used, from about 2 oz to 3 lbs (single stage unit), or from about 4-5 oz to 3 lbs (2 stage unit). I have not seen the Walther barrel groups available used. The B&W run around $500-600 for the barrel and stock set. The barrels have scope dovetails.

A review of the Walther set is available at

http://www.carlwalther.com/ouradvice.pdf

The review does not over-rate it. The B&W barrel and stock are not as pretty, not fluted, and are black oxide finish, but equally serviceable and equally accurate. This system also gives you an extremely accurate handgun, at the same time.

The Walther barrels are not threaded into the receiver section, but are a precision fit "key" interlock, held in place by an external bolt. The system is extremely solid and stable. Also, in .22lr, a 10" barrel is available if desired (but note the legal requirements if used with the stock).

It's more expensive than a basic Ruger 10/22 used, but in the same price-range as the Kidd or highest priced Ruger 10/22 systems, if a used B&W barrel and stock, and used GSP gun frame are combined. A new Walther barrel and stock puts it at least several hundred over the Kidd system costs.

 

[Nikita]

Mostly for those in or near VT

http://www.northeastshooters.com/vb...this-year-advice-please?p=3830929#post3830929

 

[USMC2111]

I built a custom 10/22 about six years ago. I spent about 1800 including a nice Leupold which is a lot, I regret spending that much looking at it in my safe, but I always feel a little better when I go to the range and shoot primers out of spent shotgun shells @ 75 yards, and watch a first time shooter shoot quarters at 100 yards... It will hold a skoal can group @ 200.

 

[Nikita]

Cost comparison

Thanks for the interesting cost comparison. Accuracy comparable to a used GSP Sporter 2000 rifle for only about $500 to $600 more (but not switchable to pistol format for alternative use), or $1000-$1100 more than what a used Walther KK or KKJ will produce at those distances with iron sights (diopter).

That's current $. If the $1800 were spent 6 years ago, the difference in cost is about $230 greater than that for either gun (730-830) for the GSP and 1230 to 1330 for the KK/KKJ). Roughly, because current used prices vary a little.

 

[Nikita]

A website of interest?

One of the forum users asked me for "your website" in the past. Until now, I haven't used that method for advertising and sale. However, yesterday that changed, with an experiment in using a social media website to advertise a specialty gun show in NE IL. Lots of high accuracy guns, pistols first, rifles later.

For people on this forum, if you are not in the area, the guns NOT sold at the gun show will be available from my NH location in August. I don't know if I'll have enough upper sections to sell. Magazines will be with gun purchase only.

The website has images in the photo album section. The "pages" section mostly is detailed technical information, but also a full list of about 90% of the guns that will be avaiable. The images are a very small fraction of what will be offered.

My thanks to ATF for finally coming through with import permits for 90% of what was requested.


http://www.meetup.com/Band-in-Highland-Park-High-Precision-Rifles-and-Pistols/

http://www.meetup.com/When-Accuracy-Matters-Guns-Band-in-Highland-Park-II

Remember, some of the guns are one of a kind, others are in very limited quantity. Rifles, late in the summer for the most part.

 

[Invictus87]

We've talked via targettalk, drop me a note when you make it up to NH.

 

[Nikita]

Target talk requests, NH shift

We've talked via targettalk, drop me a note when you make it up to NH.

Due to the limited quantities (and some one of a kinders), all requests that have been made to date through Target Talk will be filled before the gun show, if at all possible. There will be no "outbidding" at the gun show for those requests.

What is left after the gun shows will be offered on Target Talk as well. These guns will not be offered as sale items on NE Shooters, but will be offered on Target Talk and perhaps a few other boards.

If anyone on NE Shooters has a SPECIFIC request, place it now and don't wait. Some of the guns like the GSP, S&W41, HS Victor, and 208 are plentiful (more than 5 available). Most of the others vary from one to three of each, not counting any that might fail in testing and become parts guns not for resale, or those kept as test reference standards.

 

[Gammon]

In theory, it might be possible after 10,000 hours of work and lots of expertise. Realistically, it's almost impossible. One might be able to find a 10/22 with that accuracy by sorting through 10,000 of the guns to find the most accurate, but even that would be dicey.

The problems are that the magazine opening for the receiver changes the vibration patterns significantly, and adversely. The same for any gas porting that might be there or any gas tubes, if the gun is a gas operated sem-auto. There also are vibration interactions between the barrel and receiver that need to be "nulled out", and issues regarding the precision of the locking of the bolt whatever serves as a bolt in the gun.

The barrel-receiver match also is somewhat unpredictiable. Gunmakers who make these rifles from high precision receivers and barrels find that about 1/4 to 1/5 of the time, even though the barrel and receiver seemed perfect, the combination has an adverse vibration interaction, that can not be removed by bedding, barrel tuners, etc, and the barrel needs to be tossed.

Finally, if one starts with the Ruger, there is the almost-insurmountable problem of the trigger quality compared to that of the high quality match rifle, unless one can find an aftermarket one of desired quality.

Yes, it can be done.

However, it's dicey, and can consume huge amounts of time and unforseen costs.

With the after market parts available it is quite easy to build a quality 10/22 custom. Several of my friends have done it.

 

[Nikita]

Definition of Quality ???

Sorry, I missed (did not see) the definition of "quality".

In the prior comments for the above discussion, quality begins at 0.2 MOA for basic acceptable quality, and is 0.13 MOA for excellent.

For a .22 rifle, that is at 50M, unless it is a longer range version, when it is 100M. I had not mentioned trigger and stock, but in general it would be not over 2% variation in trigger pull and sear release weights over 30 rounds of firing, trigger pull adjustable down to 1 oz ideally, but 2 oz acceptable (and stable when dropped at those pulls).

Easily adjustable trigger parameters.

Stock to action coupling is included in the specified accuracy.

Durability: at least 20,000 rounds in .22.

In larger calibers, 7000 rounds for the barrel, 20,000 for the action. For a few calibers (7.5x55 version of .308) 5000 round barrel life would be acceptable due to specific problems in that caliber.

Many would add a temperature range of from 0 to 140F ambient temperature for the above accuracy requirements, others would omit that, as this is a very tough requirement to meet.

No real need for an adjustable stock in this regard, ability to use adjustable stocks somewhat of an option.

Some would add ease of barrel and caliber exchanges, but again, that is more like frosting. Some would require ability to use diopter sights or side-offset sights, but again, something of an option.

Please let me add, I really appreciate the comments from all the New England website users to my posts. I wasn't sure what was the best response to invitations to present these rifles and guns at various VT and NH gun shows.

The comments, their lines of reasoning and logic, and the Burlington (VT) police department published standard of marksmanship and training have helped me understand the objectives and desires by prospective purchasers of firearms in the NE area.

 

[Rate_of_Twist]

this is one of the best threads Ive read on NES in a long time.... I have nothing to add other than wow. ( me and my marlin 2000 have no delusions of that type of accuracy )

 

[Gammon]

I don't see the goals you set as obtainable unless the ammunition is tailored to the firearm. Even then, this seems like a wild goose chase. I doubt you can get this type of performance in anything but a custom firearm with ammo loaded specifically for it.