Running a snubby

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andy t

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I managed to spend some quality time with my 443 with CT grips yesterday during the day. I made a few interesting discoveries:
1. If I rest the trigger finger of my non-firing hand on the front of the trigger guard and actively pull the gun into my hand, the groups become tighter, and I suffer less recoil. This also helps me pull the trigger, since due to the small size of a j frame, my trigger finger, when inserted to the first knuckle, may be contacting my non-firing hand.
2. I haven't trained formally with lasers. I found that taking my time of getting on target, and looking at the dot, I get nice groups. However, I had a different experience when going on target from pocket or compressed ready. If I was trying to use laser, I was spending time looking for the dot. I tried the following approach: Focus on the irons as the gun is driven on target, and the time to acquire the dot is almost instantaneous.
I wonder what experience others have with the little snubby.

Andrew.
 
Andrew
I know that you know how to shoot, so I will not belabor those aspects.
A snubbie is an up close and personal gun and I do not think that the laser helps much.
Will it be on when you need it?
I would discourage you from having you support hand index finger on the trigger guard. It is a bad habit that could get you hurt and gives you a much weaker grip.
I suggest that you work on your body index so that the gun always is pointed wgere you need it. At close range you do not need much more that a good repeatible body index to get off good shots. Allthat you are trying to do is get a combat effective shot. A combat effective shot is any shot the diminishes the BG's ability to hurt you.

Just as a suggestion, try gripping the snubbie with your support hand thumb over your firing hand and behind the gun's hammer, or where the hammer would be if you had one
 
Jim makes excellent points - though I separate a bit on the utility of the laser - I find it to be an effective addition to the 642CT.

When I first decided to carry my 642CT, my range time was frustrating to say the least. After carrying a 1911 in one form or another for nearly 20-years, the adjustment to the seemingly monstrous, long trigger pull of the 642 left me bewildered. My groups were all over the place - sometimes 5-shots not even hitting the paper at 15-feet and the bouncing laser dot made me mental, but I kept at it. Reading through page after page on The 642 Club at THR helped a great deal. First and foremost came extensive dry firing and with that, trigger control - this is where the CT really helped. Then came something I was certainly aware of, but never gave much credence to: Point Shooting. this, was the awakening of the beast that became my 642CT. The rest of my progression involved becoming more aware and realistic at the same time about the true nature of the snub-nosed revolver. Sure, I read the threads from old timers popping clay pigeons off fence posts at 50-yards with their Detective Special and saw the 25-foot X-ring groups from another poster with a 442. The real binding in this experience came when I decided that this weapon was going to be for a street-fight - not a target range and not for an "Okay Corral" shootout from across the street. My range with this weapon is 2-inches to 10-feet and that's where I train - exclusively. Gone is the quest for tight groups and popping a soda can off a fence. My target grew from a tiny circle with an X in the center of the target, to a broader expanse in the center of a chest. I have not looked down the sight channel of this gun in over a year and may as well not have a front ramp at all. My mantra is: "draw, point, fire, follow-up, retreat"...End of story.

YMMV, but once you redefine your true purpose for this gun - the rest will follow. I started with lighter 125gr Winchester JHP and once I learned to manage recoil and the trigger - I moved up to Speer GDHP 135gr +P, where I remain today. I not only carry them, I bought 2,000 of them and train with the same round I carry. I'm certainly no expert, but this has worked for me and I carry my 642CT every single day with confidence in my decision and in my training.
 
Massmark
This is just my opinion, but to me a laser is almost useless in the daylight and I find myself hunting for the damn red dot. The net result is Slooow.
I agree that point shooting works at bad breath distances.
We deal with this in our 200 and 300 classes, starting with the shooter's forehead touching the target. This is very dangerous to do without some instruction. Come by some sunday and I will show you how to do it safely.
When you are real close, what is your support hand doing? I hope that is in a fending off position. I will try to write more on fending in another post next week.

Remember the presentation from the holster, that we teach, the support hand goes to the sternum. We tell the students that it is there to avoid shooting the support hand. That is a valid reason, but the second reason is to have the hand ready to fend off the BG. The two fending approaches focus on (1) protecting the weapon and (2) protecting your head
 
I would be wary of having a finger that far forward on a revolver -- you could easily get injured from the blast from the forcing cone on some revolvers. Doing this on some revolvers could result in a really bad hand injury:
image002.jpg
 
JimConway said:
Massmark
This is just my opinion, but to me a laser is almost useless in the daylight and I find myself hunting for the damn red dot. The net result is Slooow.
I agree that point shooting works at bad breath distances.
We deal with this in our 200 and 300 classes, starting with the shooter's forehead touching the target. This is very dangerous to do without some instruction. Come by some sunday and I will show you how to do it safely.
When you are real close, what is your support hand doing? I hope that is in a fending off position. I will try to write more on fending in another post next week.

Remember the presentation from the holster, that we teach, the support hand goes to the sternum. We tell the students that it is there to avoid shooting the support hand. That is a valid reason, but the second reason is to have the hand ready to fend off the BG. The two fending approaches focus on (1) protecting the weapon and (2) protecting your head
Click to expand...

I would love to get there one Sunday - there's so much I need to learn. I have been doing a "push off" drill - I'm sure it's called something else, but I practice with my forearm against the chest of the target, (as if it has a hold of me). I strike once with my weak-side elbow, (thank you Krav Maga), push off with my forearm, draw, point, fire, follow-up, retreat. I've been practicing with a weapons retention knife as well....Bottom line though - I need to make time for formal training.
 
Although this grip is a very strong grip for a snubby, I have never been able to master it due to arthritis in my hands. I can not stretch that far comfortably..

Jerry2-6.gif


I use the same grip on all of my revolvers and rely on memory and proper basic grip to maintain control and I can control the airlite Ty Magnum with my grip.

Grip is similar to this

Jerry2-5.gif


Jerry2-4.gif


Photos borrowed from Shooting USA Pro Tips.

As for the laser grips, I would much rather be sure I can hit with a point shooting technique than rely on a funny red light. The laser is a crutch and nothing else IMNSHO.

In a dark room, the laser can be followed right back to you giving me a great point of aim [wink]
 
MassMark said:
I would love to get there one Sunday - there's so much I need to learn. I have been doing a "push off" drill - I'm sure it's called something else, but I practice with my forearm against the chest of the target, (as if it has a hold of me). I strike once with my weak-side elbow, (thank you Krav Maga), push off with my forearm, draw, point, fire, follow-up, retreat. I've been practicing with a weapons retention knife as well....Bottom line though - I need to make time for formal training.
Click to expand...

While you are trying to push off Mark, I will have grabbed your shirt, placed the barrel of my snub under your chin and caused things to go severely wrong for you.[wink]
 
Round Gun Shooter said:
Although this grip is a very strong grip for a snubby, I have never been able to master it due to arthritis in my hands. I can not stretch that far comfortably..

Jerry2-6.gif
Click to expand...

One issue with this grip is that if you get into the habit of doing this on a revolver, you may then mistakenly use it on a semi-auto. That would hurt. A lot.
 
M1911 said:
One issue with this grip is that if you get into the habit of doing this on a revolver, you may then mistakenly use it on a semi-auto. That would hurt. A lot.
Click to expand...

Those are the hands of Jerry Miculek. He shoots both and only recommends this grip for the snubby not even for a full size revolver. Although I agree with your statement, people need to adapt a grip to the firearm they are using. In all instances, one size does not fit all. [wink]
 
Round Gun Shooter said:
Those are the hands of Jerry Miculek. He shoots both and only recommends this grip for the snubby not even for a full size revolver. Although I agree with your statement, people need to adapt a grip to the firearm they are using. In all instances, one size does not fit all. [wink]
Click to expand...

Yup. When I teach it is typically to new shooters, so I try to keep things simple. Just wanted to make sure that new folks around here realize the issue that might arise using that grip on a semi-auto.
 
Round Gun Shooter said:
While you are trying to push off Mark, I will have grabbed your shirt, placed the barrel of my snub under your chin and caused things to go severely wrong for you.[wink]
Click to expand...

Damn, Can't we all just get along???

Sorry, I couldn't resist.
-Cuz.
 
Cuz said:
Damn, Can't we all just get along???

Sorry, I couldn't resist.
-Cuz.
Click to expand...

You kidding? He's serious... [smile]


If you ever have the chance to spend any time shooting with RGS - consider it time well spent. I learned more from him about snub-nosed revolvers in an hour, than I could have hoped for in years on my own...

BTW - Gary. The "mode-o-thug" around here has been getting jumped - I got this drill from an instructor out this way, though I suppose it is moot if the perp has a gun...
 
Originally Posted by Round Gun Shooter
While you are trying to push off Mark, I will have grabbed your shirt, placed the barrel of my snub under your chin and caused things to go severely wrong for you.

i know one thing for sure and that is that it is very difficuly or impossible to draw a weapon at bad breath distances. If you doubt me, try it in a real combatives class, but don't say that i did not warn you.
 
I'm still undecided on lasers for defensive use, but they're a great tool for practice. I was dryfiring Jim's snubby yesterday, and turning the laser on gave me great feedback on my trigger control. When I started, the laser was bouncing off the target to the right. After dryfiring for a few minutes, the laser was still moving, but they would have all been good hits.
 
jar said:
I'm still undecided on lasers for defensive use, but they're a great tool for practice. I was dryfiring Jim's snubby yesterday, and turning the laser on gave me great feedback on my trigger control. When I started, the laser was bouncing off the target to the right. After dryfiring for a few minutes, the laser was still moving, but they would have all been good hits.
Click to expand...

Tru Dat!

Also, A great way to use it on a snubby is to draw, point at a close target, then turn on the laser ans see how "off" you are. I think there is a place in defense for a laser. Like holding on a suspect while you talk to others etc.
 
JimConway said:
Originally Posted by Round Gun Shooter
While you are trying to push off Mark, I will have grabbed your shirt, placed the barrel of my snub under your chin and caused things to go severely wrong for you.

i know one thing for sure and that is that it is very difficuly or impossible to draw a weapon at bad breath distances. If you doubt me, try it in a real combatives class, but don't say that i did not warn you.
Click to expand...

true but the proper place for a firearm if you have any inkling of a problem is in your hand not in a holster
 
Round Gun shooter
I assume that you are one of those folks the spend their whole lives in condition Yellow. No one that I know of or heard of has ever found a way to achieve this state, because everyone gets distracted or task fixated from time to time.

It would be a very rare or foolish thing for a criminal to attack someone that they thought was aware of their possible actions. In todays world there are simply too many easy unaware targets to choose from. Just think for moment of all of the cell phone users deep in conversation as they walk along or of the pair walking while embroiled in an arguement. About a week ago I saw a woman sitting in her car with the door wide open as she balanced her check book. For a criminal seeking someone to assault, there is a single word that sums up their view - PREY

Remenber that there are only two roles that you can play in a violent assault - Ambusher or Ambushee
 
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Well and that's just it...In some of the most dange prone places I go - I'm the least able to be in "condition yellow". Often, I will be walking in a bad neighborhood, or up darkened stairways with groceries, or paperwork, keys or medication planners. Having my hand on my gun is just impossible at times, so I train a bit for the most likely scenario - getting jumped. If someone jumps out and stuffs a gun under my chin - I guess the likely scenario is that the jig is up...I will not however go down without a fight. If the person just grabs a hold of me, there will be some troubles in his immediate future - I hope.....
 
Round Gun Shooter said:
+1, kick, spit, scratch, and anything else you can think of. There is no such thing as a dirty fighter just a looser.

If you see me walking with my hand in my pocket, don't assume I am counting my change [wink]
Click to expand...

LOL...I'm the same way and the beauty of the snubbie, is I look my natural self when I walk with my hand tucked in my front pocket. Sadly, based on where my clients live and their individual needs, I'm unable to always be at the ready, so I do the best I can...Pittsfield is sliding down the slope - shootings, stabbings, muggings are all on the rise here. The best part of my day tends to be when I hit South County and the road to Tyringham...
 
I have two points
Walking about with a hand in a pocket is a major clue to me at least. If your body type (no big gut) allows it appendix carry is a viable option the is very fast way to deploy a gun.

If you can not carry a gun, for whatever reason, consider a small (2.5") fixed blade carried horizontal at the mid line (your waist in the front at 10:00 or at 2:00 o'clock
 
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I would consider this a feature rather than a bug...

To an experienced BG who might recognize the hand-in-pocket as a CCW, it encourages him to move on to easier prey.

To an inexperienced BG who doesn't get the clue, it gives you the advantage of having your weapon closer at hand.

Just MHO...

JimConway said:
I have two points
Walking about with a hand in a pocket is a major clue to me at least. If your body type (no big gut) allows it appendix carry is a viable option the is very fast way to deploy a gun.
Click to expand...
 
Jay G
What you say is true as far as it goes. Remember that assaults are the way that BG's earn their living. It is their job and, like all of us, the BG is skilled at his job.
We may, if we are unlucky, be assaulted once. The BG, on the other hand, can be expected to to it many, many times. They are not as stupid as we would like to think and they do learn from their mistakes.
 
JimConway said:
We may, if we are unlucky, be assaulted once. The BG, on the other hand, can be expected to to it many, many times. They are not as stupid as we would like to think and they do learn from their mistakes.
Click to expand...

First time a mugger tried me I was in NYC 16years old, and a real country kid. Only thing I had in my favor was a little size. Three of us were approached and accosted and I took a hard line then and there I was not going to be pushed around. Looking back, I made mistakes but he moved on and my buddies caught up.

The short answer is "Presence" If you look like a meal, you should carry a fork. If you stand up for yourself you at least have a chance. Some day you will stand up to the wrong person and may have your a$$ handed to you but learn from the situation so next time you will be more prepared.

It is amazing how this went from How to Run a snubby to this but it has been an interesting journey.

Only thing better than a Snubby as true concealed carry is Two [wink]. Strong hand pocket, weak hand IWB works great.
 

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