s&w m&p

[Chris]

In my discussions with S&W, the factory is cracking down on the M&P parts and really want to only have those who have taken the Armorer course to have them. The indication was that they didn't want to deal with any liability of someone selling modified sears or other parts that could cause firearms to malfunction.

From what I can see, the actual sear in all the M&Ps is exactly the same. While there are some things done for the MA model that make getting a really light trigger tough without replacing parts, you can get a GOOD trigger with proper smithing.

When I did my trigger job, I took it very slow and did a lot of test fitting. According to my trigger gauge, I'm just under 4 lbs and have had no reliability issues. I did swap parts, but even putting back the old block I'm still in the 4.5 lb range, so you don't need to get the "free state" parts to get a good trigger.

All in all, I have about 4 hours into mine (like I said, I took my time). Not only did I recut a few pieces to reduce reset and overtravel, but I spent a long time with a very fine Omaha stone and polished all the connecting pieces to a mirror surface. I think that alone can yield some impressive results which is why so many people tell you to just break the gun in as it does it's own polish.

Burwell seems to cut the knob that interfaces with the trigger bar until the gun no longer fires and then grinds down the top of the sear until it does again. I'm not sure this is required, but it may be how he gets the volume he does. It certainly does result in a very sloped angle on the knob of the sear. When I did mine, I took the time to create a multiple angle cut that better worked as the sear pivoted.

I also don't think you need to round off the firing pin block as much as I've seen. I feel that doing so removes a bit of 'crispness' from the trigger pull. Pure weight alone does not equal a good trigger. You want a trigger that breaks clean without either excessive takeup or overtravel. The clean break is MUCH harder than just making the trigger 'light'. By leaving most of the block intact, you apply pressure on the trigger, the trigger bar pushes past the firing pin block when pressure is high enough and then everything else has more than enough to operate.

The real dangerous place to modify is the back end of the sear. When you pull the trigger and the sear begins to rock, the angle at the rear must push the striker back a little before it can release. I've seen plenty of on-line directions that tell you to cut back this angle as a means to reduce trigger pull. Unfortunately, if you go too far, you might not get a good hold on the striker which could result in the firearm discharging without pulling the trigger. Pretty much the same thing as what occurs in a 1911 that has a worn sear/hammer interface.

My last testing involved using marking compound used in setting differential gears to see what kind of 'pattern' the striker and sear were making when they met. By careful polishing of those parts to meet fully square on, I'm assured a consistent engagement.

On the whole, unless you REALLY know what you are doing, completely understand the engineering involved, and take your time to do things, doing your own Trigger Job is probably not a good idea.

Having the proper tooling and the discipline to work at it slowly also helps. Very hard to put metal back on.

 

[Tiktock]

I've seen plenty of on-line directions that tell you to cut back this angle as a means to reduce trigger pull. Unfortunately, if you go too far, you might not get a good hold on the striker which could result in the firearm discharging without pulling the trigger.

How is this possible? Doesnt the firing pin block (plunger)only allow the pin to move if the trigger bar has depressed it? My understanding was that to fire, that plunger needed to be depressed via pulling the trigger, which both rotates the sear to release the striker and depresses the plunger at the same time. otherwise, you could theoretically bang the gun with your hand hard enough to move the sear that .02" and it would fire, which isnt possible or else there would be LOTS of AD when people dropped their gun.

 

[Lugnut]

Greg,

You are correct- you don't need to replace the sear. It's good to have back up though.

I will say though that the assembly itself IS different. The little spring under the MA sear IS bigger/stiffer. ALSO the MA trigger return IS MUCH stiffer... I'd say at least another pound of so. I've also be told the trigger bar is another compenent that is different- the MA trigger bar has a different ramp than the "std" ones.

4.5 lbs is a real nice trigger in that gun....

I do not believe thet you need to replace the sear to get a really nice trigger. I work on maybe 4-5 M&P's a month and have yet to change the sear. Some guns are Mass. guns some are not (early versions) I guess. All in all with the right tools and carefull work the M&P works fine with the factory parts. Dan Burwell may be doing a lot of "pre fabricating" by tuning sears in advance to cut turn around time. The dimesional diffrences in sears in nominal. The MA version has the mag disconnect which does not change the sear. As for a 2.5 pound trigger I have yet to see that. I would be a little reluctant to even try it. The inner working of the striker system would make an AD possible. At 4 pounds the M&P trigger is very nice with very little overtravel. I do get parts as a qualified armorer from Smith but have yet to see the need. Greg

 

[vellnueve]

Very interteresting....my hunch was for the price these guys are charging, they are mass modifying sears and plungers....did he send you back the stock sear and plunger? The trigger job doesnt require any extra or replacement parts....so my hunch is they have a big bag of polished plungers and sears 95% modified and they just drop a new plunger in, replace the sear and do minor tweaks specific to the gun.

Unless they have a VERY low hourly wage for custom work, I cant picture them custom modifying the stock sear of each gun, polishing the trigger bar ramp, removing the rear site, custom polishing the stock plunger, reassembling and refitting for 60$...maybe they are speed demons!

That would explain the cheap cost and turnaround time....maybe I should start a NES business!

For MA guns they replace the entire assembly.

 

[Greg Derr]

I think the MA block is diferent, The sear spring I will check. To allow the mag disconnect, the trigger bar has a "tab" which is moved to one side with out a mag in the frame. The mag moves the bar to engage the sear when it is in place. The sear spring is very small and I don't think I could test it with any scientific accuracy. One thing I have found is that each one is a bit different. There is a large variable in the dimensions if the frame. Being injection molded plastic may have something to do with it or the number of molds produced. The metal parts are of good quality. The sear looks cast as opposed to MIM and is somewhat hard. There is a lot of slop in the actual trigger itself and I sense som flexing of the trigger bar on a stock gun. The bar even with the stiffening folds in the steel is a little flimsy. Greg

 

[dbhn]

Since handling and dry firing an M&P I have been wondering why they have been so well received when the Sigma line has been so ill received. The trigger on the Sigma is very, very similar to the M&P. And the trigger on the new VE Sigmas are really their only downfall. Just something I've been wondering about.

Mr. Greg Derr, I have heard a few times that the Sigma triggers are not fixable. Is this true? My uneducated thought is that the inner workings of the two guns must be very similar.

If it is true that they can't be improved, this may very well explain the reason for noone warming up them.

Regardless, the Sigmas don't come in compact and I am line for a nice new M&P9c before Jan. 31....

 

[vellnueve]

Sigma triggers are not really improvable.

 

[M1911]

Sigma's have also had significant reliability issues.

 

[Jose]

Since handling and dry firing an M&P I have been wondering why they have been so well received when the Sigma line has been so ill received. .

Because the free state trigger of the M&P is light years better than the Sigma's.

 

[sourcehill]

The trigger on the M&P is awesome. The sear/striker engagement is a great design. There is a lot of tweaking you can do to them but I think the stock trigger is sweet.

 

[jar]

Does anyone have bad things to say about the M&P other than the MA trigger? All of the reviews and impressions I've seen have been glowing. I'm curious to hear from anyone who disagrees. It just sounds too good to be true that there aren't people who don't like it.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Jar, yes, talk with Mike Larocca (Worcester gunsmith).

Also got some less than positive feedback from Jim Conway and a LEO who tested them for his department in VT (so MA garbage was not a factor).

Since I respect all those opinions, I've decided not to jump on an M&P now, even though I shot the one at S&W's range (non-MA garbage) and really liked it.

What Mike Larocca told me tracks very well what Jim Conway had told me, so I have corroborating evidence, if you will.

 

[M1911]

Len:

What were their criticisms of the M&P?

 

[Len-2A Training]

Mike Larocca gave me the real scoop, purely technical engineering type info. Ask him as I can't do justice in trying to explain it.

The experiences of both Jim Conway and the VT LEO track as being resultant due to the issue that Mike Larocca pointed out to me. It has to do with the design of the trigger mechanism.

At the Marlboro gun show I just asked Mike if he worked on M&Ps and that is what started the conversation. Yes he does work on them.

 

[pdm]

Some of the M&Ps in .40 have a problem with the mag dropping after firing. Has to do with the mag release getting bumped by the shooter's hand. I haven't seen this in my M&P 9mm full-sized. Later models are supposed to have been tweaked with a hardened something or other.

 

[matt]

Some of the M&Ps in .40 have a problem with the mag dropping after firing. Has to do with the mag release getting bumped by the shooter's hand. I haven't seen this in my M&P 9mm full-sized. Later models are supposed to have been tweaked with a hardened something or other.

This happened to me several times when I tried one at S&W. I chalked it up to being a rental gun that was poorly maintained. If it was a design issue that was some how fixed, I'd like to know. It is enough to keep me from buying one, but maybe my hands are just the wrong size.

 

[vellnueve]

The mag drop issue has been resolved.

 

[sourcehill]

Hey Len, could you maybe fill us in a little bit about what Mike had to say about the design? I understand the design and do think it has it's shortcomings but S&W truly designed something unique that I think can be perfected with a few tweeks.

 

[jar]

What is the problem caused by the issue? I understand if you don't want to play whisper down the lane with the technical details, but what's the reason to care? Safety issue, reliability issue?

 

[Len-2A Training]

Guys, sorry I'm not trying to be secretive. This was part of a casual conversation with Mike that started with "Do you work on M&Ps?" His response was "yes" but he told me that he was not real happy working on them due to the design. Then he went into a "mechanical engineering" discussion of why. Made sense to hear it (put together with input from other folks), but since I am totally unfamiliar with the internals of the gun (had to do with part of the trigger mechanism pushing on one side while something else "pulls" on the other side), I really can't describe it intelligently.

Jim Conway has also told me that he has handled and shot ~8 different M&Ps and everyone of them "was different" wrt the trigger pull. Seems like "repeatability" in mfg may be an issue here?

I talked with a VT LEO friend of mine who evaluated the M&P for his department and he passes along the following (which may only be a factor for LEOs) . . .

- Due to the police package design of the Crown Vics, there is a part that sticks out and hits butt of the M&P hits it when getting in and out of the Crown Vics. [He tells me that this is not an issue with the Explorers, strictly with the Crown Vics due to car design smashing heads with gun design.]

- His experience has been that this has resulted in M&P mag bases breaking and the gun "disassembling" in the cruiser!

- I haven't driven a cruiser in 11 years now, but my Honda Civics have a "high rise" seatbelt socket that has hit a number of my carry guns. Could this be an issue if I owned an M&P? Maybe!

- As my friend told me, this is a gun to "watch". If S&W evolves this gun to a Rev 2, it might become the best plastic gun out there. He recommends a "wait and see" attitude and that is what I've personally decided to do at this point.

 

[drgrant]

Does anyone have bad things to say about the M&P other than the MA trigger? All of the reviews and impressions I've seen have been glowing. I'm curious to hear from anyone who disagrees. It just sounds too good to be true that there aren't people who don't like it.

The ones I tried at S+W (full size.40 and .45) both had a reset that
seemed to be hard to perceive. It wasn't really a big deal after I
got going but on the first few shots I ended up "short stroking" the
trigger because I pulled it back again before it actually reset.
This problem may or may not be fixable (eg trigger job?).

I found this especially strange considering I'm generally not a
"reset gamer" to the degree that others are... but if you're really
used to the tiny reset on a P99, Glock, or 1911 you might be
disappointed.

-Mike

 

[sourcehill]

It states in the M&P manual to not reset the trigger this way. I guess due to the design, the trigger can not be staged like a GLOCK trigger.

 

[Lugnut]

I am not an expert in this topic but I doubt the design has any serious short comings. I do think there will be some minor tweaks/adjustements, some of which have already occurred. I think the sear/striker design is sound and actually very similar in many ways to some other well designed guns. I do think they can redesign the trigger to be much better with a definitive reset... and they should, regardless of anything the manual says. I've never shot any other guns that didn't have a clear reset.

 

[sourcehill]

I found it odd when I read that in the manual as well. I looked back to an older issue of Combat Handguns when they reviewed a very early M&P 40 full-size (serial#MPA0202 from the photo). In the review they stated that it was very hard to feel the reset. Maybe S&W designed it this way so officers wouldn't be trained to do the short reset therefore eliminating unintentional discharges?

 

[TY43215]

I am not an expert in this topic but I doubt the design has any serious short comings. I do think there will be some minor tweaks/adjustements, some of which have already occurred. I think the sear/striker design is sound and actually very similar in many ways to some other well designed guns. I do think they can redesign the trigger to be much better with a definitive reset... and they should, regardless of anything the manual says. I've never shot any other guns that didn't have a clear reset.

There is a definite reset in all three of my M&Ps the 2 40s and the 45. The 9 I had also had a definite reset. In a match I play the reset and have had no problem with them.

As for problems with the M&Ps themselves???? I have had none but the 45 has very few rounds through it at this point. One M&P 40 had a trigger job done by Burwell. Second one came from the factory with a very nice trigger. The 45 was a little gritty so t has been cleaned up a bit but did not need to be lightened.

This is my experience, YMMV

Gary

 

[TY43215]

Read This

 

[Knob Creek]

I've watched and waited on these for awhile. But I've got a dealer offering the M&P's for $439.00. And with the $50.00 rebate that puts them below $400.00 and get two adl mags. It may be time to take the plunge with a 9mm.

 

[squeeze]

Could you let us know who is the dealer.

Thanks
Kurt

 

[Len-2A Training]

Could you let us know who is the dealer.

Thanks
Kurt

Although that sounds like the price AFTER the $50 rebate, if I'm mistaken and the dealer is actually charging $439 BEFORE rebate, watch out about posting the dealer's name.

A RAT may report them to S&W for selling under the approved price point!

 

[PaulD]

Although that sounds like the price AFTER the $50 rebate, if I'm mistaken and the dealer is actually charging $439 BEFORE rebate, watch out about posting the dealer's name.

A RAT may report them to S&W for selling under the approved price point!

Companies can only set minimum advertised prices. They can't dictate what a retailer actually sells the product for. Besides, S&W doesn't strike me as a company that would even try.