Saiga Conversion

[CLICCO]

My friend owns a Saiga .308 and I am thinking of purchasing a Saiga-12. These are both "Sporterized" rifle configuration, meaning that they do not have the standard AK pistol grip, but rather just have a more classic-style rifle stock. In any event, I am (as is my friend) interested in converting the Saiga to have a pistol grip, etc. I understand that there are 922.r issues to be considered, but are there any additional concerns based on my residency in the state of Massachusetts? i.e. is it legal to convert a "sporterized" rifle into one with a pistol grip configuration?

Any help in understanding the legalities is appreciated!

 

[jar]

Rifle yes, shotgun no. On the rifle, the pistol grip is your evil feature, so no bayo lug, flash hider, grenade launcher, or folding stock. On the shotgun, the detachable mag is the evil feature, so no other fun is allowed.

 

[CLICCO]

I'm confused though; you can have more than one "evil feature" on a rifle. i.e. my post-ban AR has pistol grip and a flash hider (permanently attached). Why can you only have one "evil feature" on a shotgun?

 

[Ripach]

I'm confused though; you can have more than one "evil feature" on a rifle. i.e. my post-ban AR has pistol grip and a flash hider (permanently attached). Why can you only have one "evil feature" on a shotgun?

Not true, and if it is stop posting about it. Your AR most likely has a permanently attached "Muzzle Brake". IMHO not much different than a flash hider, but in the eyes of the law, one equals legal and the other equals felony.

 

[CLICCO]

My mistake - I thought that muzzle brake and flash hider were synonymous

 

[CLICCO]

So, even if you comply with 922.r, an MA resident cannot put a pistol grip on a magazine fed shotgun? I don't mean to be redundant, but the MA laws are very confusing...

 

[crak]

Correct. Much to my dismay, since I just sold my 870 to help finance a Saiga and have to settle for a limpy one if I go forward. And I didn't care much about the 10 round mags because they're comically big, but I'm pissed that those are considered high caps for shotgun.

 

[CLICCO]

Crak - so, can you legally own the Saiga-12 10-round mags if you an MA resident?

 

[jar]

Yes, if they're pre-ban.

 

[crak]

I don't think there is any such thing as a preban 10 round Saiga-12 mag. These guns are fairly recent developments.

 

[CLICCO]

Crak - you're definitely right on that one.

 

[TheFaz]

If you take a look around this site you'll notice that there are plenty of Saiga-12s in MA with pistol grip stocks and 10rd mags, none of which are illegal to my (or to those who own them in MA) knowledge. I'm pretty sure guys like 7.62x39 who are very knowledgable of what you can do in MA would be posting pictures of their pistol-grip Saiga-12s with the AGP mags if they thought they were doing something wrong.

 

[CLICCO]

I guess my question would be: Do those people who own the converted Saiga-12s, with 10-round mags, actually live in MA? This forum has many non-MA members as well

 

[crak]

Don't blame the messenger.

If (big IF) those are Ma**h***s, I would've been right there with them next week if hadn't done a reread of the AWB and found shotgun rules are different from rifle rules. I'm not telling them they should all turn their Saigas in to Martha either. I've just made a personal decision to not risk it all over a shotgun until someone points out otherwise with references to the law.

There is a thread on the Saiga-12.com forums where a New Yorker (same law) did the legwork and got to the same conclusion I did.

 

[TheFaz]

There is no if on being a MA resident, check the other Saiga-12 post on this forum where you'll see a picture of a pistol-grip conversion done in your state. Since I shoot at Harvard every weekend I can vouch for the other (unnamed) individuals who I know are MA residents and have them converted. I have no idea if it is legal or not in MA, nor do I really care as I have no intentions of living there, but there are more than a few floating around. Either everyone is wrong and unaware of the laws (which is possible given how confusing they are), or they are legal.

 

[jar]

Either everyone is wrong and unaware of the laws (which is possible given how confusing they are), or they are legal.

Correct answer bolded. Also, if you shoot in MA, you need to know the MA laws as they apply to non-residents too.

 

[crak]

Let's deal with the conversion question first. A shotgun has a lower threshold than a rifle for being an Assault Weapon.

MGL Chapter 140: Section 121:
“Assault weapon”, shall have the same meaning as a semiautomatic assault weapon as defined in the federal Public Safety and Recreational Firearms Use Protection Act, 18 U.S.C. section 921(a)(30) as appearing in such section on September 13, 1994,

18 USC section 921(a)(30):
The term "semiautomatic assault weapon" means -
(B) a semiautomatic rifle that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least 2 of -
(i) a folding or telescoping stock;
(ii) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon;
(iii) a bayonet mount;
(iv) a flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed to accommodate a flash suppressor; and
(v) a grenade launcher;

(D) a semiautomatic shotgun that has at least 2 of -
(i) a folding or telescoping stock;
(ii) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon;
(iii) a fixed magazine capacity in excess of 5 rounds; and
(iv) an ability to accept a detachable magazine.

Again, I think this is all crap and I don't wish any heat on anyone over it. It's just not for me and there were more than a few of us who thought the shotgun rules were the same as the rifle rules who would have been in the same leaky boat without a reread. Maybe someone wants to be the one who takes it all the way to the US SC.

 

[Ripach]

Again, I think this is all crap and I don't wish any heat on anyone over it. It's just not for me and there were more than a few of us who thought the shotgun rules were the same as the rifle rules who would have been in the same leaky boat without a reread.

+1 when I first acquired my Saiga 12 I was considering converting it, but after a quick read through the law I was scared off. Now I'm wondering where a thumbhole/dragunov style stock fits into this equation, I've found very conflicting info on this and I am unsure if I want to proceed.

 

[Madball13]

Crak - so, can you legally own the Saiga-12 10-round mags if you an MA resident?

Praegenstein, regardless if the mags are preban or post once you add a magazine that defaults the rifle to "assault weapon status" you now need to comply with 922 and have the correct number of compliant parts to the shotgun.

 

[CLICCO]

Crak - that is exactly what I think needed to be added to this thread. Thank you very much for the information. For myself, I've definitely decided that I will NOT be pursuing a Saiga shotgun conversion, at least at this point in time, in the state of MA...

 

[Twigg]

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