Seating and crimping questions on first time setup...

[Paleoman]

Hi,

Setting up my Dillon XL 650 to do 9mm 115gr run, for my first time reloading and had some basic questions on seating and crimping adjustments.

The easy one...For the seating, Hornady book says C.O.L. of 1.1 for FMJ RN. Lyman's says 1.09 OAL, but for a jacketed HP. I have Berry's RN .356 bullets. Their website says 1.13. I have set my die for 1.13. I'm figuring that I sure use the Berry's specification, right?

For crimping... I'm not sure how far to crimp. I have clearly removed the bell, but am not sure what I have is ok. The two cases that I'm trying (different manufacturers, as I figure I don't care if I mess them up) have a diameter in the center of .373 and .374. At the edge of the case, I have one with .379. The other, I did a quarter turn more of the die and it is .377. Neither seem to be over crimped, but I'm not sure how much to do.

Looking at a Winchester UMC bullet that I have, with an OAL 1.1, the diameter is .382 and at the edge it is .377. The edge of the second case I did feel more like the factory bullet.

Any suggestions on how to set the crimp amount?

Will upload some pictures in a bit.

 

[Paleoman]

Here are some photos of the three bullets. The one on the left is the factory Winchester bullet. The center one is the one I seated and crimped to .379". The third one is seated and crimped to .377".

 

[DW357]

You could load these to 1.16" if you wanted to (assuming they fit in the magazines and chamber in your gun). Some guns like my CZ75 (short throat), can only reliably chamber HP bullets that are loaded to a max length of 1.10". You'll have to play around with OAL but using Berrys specified length of 1.13" shouldn't be a problem. I recommend loading some dummy rounds (no powder/primer) and chamber them through your gun to see if they load fine.

As for crimping, you only need to remove the bell/flare. I gave up trying to "measure" crimp due to the inconsistent case wall thickness of various brass. What are you using for a crimping die? You could use a factory round and run up into the die (with the crimp die screwed out all the way) then screw it in until you feel it touch the casemouth. The factory round 'should' help get you close to the right amount of crimp.

 

[Paleoman]

I checked in the case gauge and the bullets fit fine. I only have the bullet in these cases. No primer or powder. Those are the next of the final adjustments.

I'm using the Dillon carbide dies.

The middle one is the picture (.379") feels like it has an edge. The one on the right(.377") feels more like the factory edge, maybe a tad smoother.

Not sure if I should crimp something in between them, the same as the one on the right, or go even more.


sent from my phone.

 

[Paleoman]

So, I stopped by Shooters Outpost and asked some questions on the crimp.

They tried it in their case gauge and the one witg less crimp didn't seem to go in as easily as the other. I tried with my case gauge at home, and it didn't seem as loose as the others, but was really subtle. Good to know what to look for. I didn't notice when I first checked.

They looked up dimensions and at the crimp location it is .380, so that bullet is real close (.379) compared to the others (.377).

Looks like I could keep it at my last setting of .377.

They suggested dropping it into the barrel too, as another check.



sent from my phone.

 

[NavelOfficer]

They suggested dropping it into the barrel too, as another check.

That's generally the best test for your reloads; plunk test into the firearm that you are reloading for.
This doesn't necessarily mean your reloads will run 100% in another firearm, but it's good for what you have.
Also, the case dimensions listed are usually maximums. The .3800" for the 9x19mm at the mouth with bullet seated is generally a maximum; it doesn't mean that a diameter of .379" won't headspace correctly.
At some point, if you crimp excessively, you 'll have the mouth of the case slide past the chamber ridge and the cartridge will not headspace correctly. You've probably already deformed the bullet or cut into the jacket/plating at this point.
As an extreme graphic illustration, drop a .32 ACP into your 9mm barrel, it will slip right through the chamber and out the muzzle.
As said above, a modest taper crimp that restores any bell/flare that you may have formed for bullet lead-in, is all you really want to perform. Cases that headspace on the mouth (generally most 9x17/18/19/21mm, 40 S&W, 10MM Auto, .380 Auto, .45 ACP, .30 Carbine...) will not get a roll crimp, but rather a taper crimp, if any.

See Page 27:
http://www.saami.org/specifications_and_information/publications/download/205.pdf

 

[Paleoman]

Thanks for the link!

sent from my phone.

 

[highlander]

I set my crimp for semi auto pistols by running an empty sized case into the crimp die,screw it down till it touches lower the die then turn the die down another 1/8-1/4 turn lock in place. If you use cast bullets disassemble the dies every couple of hundred rounds and clean the seater and crimp inserts as bullet lube will acumulate in the inserts and throw your settings off.

 

[EddieCoyle]

It's a waste of time to try to measure crimp diameters.

I'm not a fan of the "plunk" test either. I have some barrels that will allow the rounds to plunk, then they won't feed in my pistols with tighter chambers. I only trust the gages.

Here's the way to set the crimp:

1. Loosen up the die and seating stem, but especially the seating stem.
2. Put a round of factory ammo in the shell holder, and run the ram up to its highest point.
3. Tighten the die down until you feel the crimping shoulder hit the case.
4. Put a witness mark at 6:00 on the edge of the die with a Sharpie.
5. Back the ram off, then tighten the die an additional 1/4 turn (move your witness mark to 9:00).
6. Run the round back up into the die, and tighten the lock nut under load.
7. Make up a dummy round to the correct OAL and see if it gages (it will).

 

[peterthefish]

I'm not a fan of the "plunk" test either. I have some barrels that will allow the rounds to plunk, then they won't feed in my pistols with tighter chambers. I only trust the gages.

I have rounds that plunk in my Glock but don't gauge. Flipside is I have rounds that gauge but won't plunk / feed in my DW PM-9. Ideally all gauges and chambers would be created equal, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

I say that to say this: there is absolutely a place for plunk testing. Especially since many reloaders consider things like chronos, gauges, etc... as optional.

/I use a Shockbottle 9mm gauge.

 

[Steve Marshall]

When new to 9MM reloading about 30 years ago, my new RCBS dies, set up on apparently the wrong brand of brass, didn't work as they should. About half the rounds loaded in that session would allow the bullets to sink into the brass with mild pressure. Simple solution, right? Yeah, crimp the bejeezus out of the case. Well, that didn't work out so well either. First off, some bullets would sink in of their own weight prior to crimping. Simple solution #2. Shitcan those. Now we're talking. But wasp waisted cartridges and aesthetics intervened. So, simple solution #3. Sort and load by headstamp. Anyone who range collects brass knows inherently that is not a good idea unless they own many 5 gallon buckets worth.

And so, with measurement being the way I earned a living, I measured several hundreds of 9MM cases. Those results are long lost but ball park, here they are. 9mm cases varied in OAL quite a bit with not one being of the stated .754". I found cases as low as .740", hmm. Weights varied an astounding 30%!!!
roughly 50 grains to 70 grains, as I recall, hmmmmm. Something was obviously amiss. Mind you this was pre-internet, but still, I'd never heard about problems that severe in loading 9MM. And guess what, it was the sizing die not doing it's job. I believe that was the first, of quite a few over the years, RCBS dies that were bad. The new die I got in replacement worked fine with every piece of brass tried.

When all else fails, sometimes it's not your fault.

 

[EddieCoyle]

When new to 9MM reloading about 30 years ago, my new RCBS dies, set up on apparently the wrong brand of brass, didn't work as they should. About half the rounds loaded in that session would allow the bullets to sink into the brass with mild pressure. Simple solution, right? Yeah, crimp the bejeezus out of the case. Well, that didn't work out so well either. First off, some bullets would sink in of their own weight prior to crimping. Simple solution #2. Shitcan those. Now we're talking. But wasp waisted cartridges and aesthetics intervened. So, simple solution #3. Sort and load by headstamp. Anyone who range collects brass knows inherently that is not a good idea unless they own many 5 gallon buckets worth.

And so, with measurement being the way I earned a living, I measured several hundreds of 9MM cases. Those results are long lost but ball park, here they are. 9mm cases varied in OAL quite a bit with not one being of the stated .754". I found cases as low as .740", hmm. Weights varied an astounding 30%!!!
roughly 50 grains to 70 grains, as I recall, hmmmmm. Something was obviously amiss. Mind you this was pre-internet, but still, I'd never heard about problems that severe in loading 9MM. And guess what, it was the sizing die not doing it's job. I believe that was the first, of quite a few over the years, RCBS dies that were bad. The new die I got in replacement worked fine with every piece of brass tried.

When all else fails, sometimes it's not your fault.

I've had similar problems with Lee dies multiple times.

For a sizing die in a pistol set to work 100% of the time, it must reduce the case diameter enough so that even the thinnest (0.008" thick) brass will hold a bullet. This results in a pronounced "wasp waist" in thicker (up to 0.015" thick) brass.

 

[Paleoman]

It's a waste of time to try to measure crimp diameters.

I'm not a fan of the "plunk" test either. I have some barrels that will allow the rounds to plunk, then they won't feed in my pistols with tighter chambers. I only trust the gages.

Here's the way to set the crimp:

1. Loosen up the die and seating stem, but especially the seating stem.
2. Put a round of factory ammo in the shell holder, and run the ram up to its highest point.
3. Tighten the die down until you feel the crimping shoulder hit the case.
4. Put a witness mark at 6:00 on the edge of the die with a Sharpie.
5. Back the ram off, then tighten the die an additional 1/4 turn (move your witness mark to 9:00).
6. Run the round back up into the die, and tighten the lock nut under load.
7. Make up a dummy round to the correct OAL and see if it gages (it will).

Are you talking about a combination seating and crimping die? I have separate (Dillon) dies.
Would I do the same, bring the crimped down to touch and then add another 1/4 turn and try with my bullet/case?

thanks.

 

[EddieCoyle]

Yes, and yes.

Here's the Dillon version:

1. Back the crimp die out a couple of turns.
2. Put a round of factory ammo in the shell holder under the crimp die, and run the ram up to its highest point.
3. Tighten the die down until you feel the crimping shoulder hit the case.
4. Put a witness mark at 6:00 on the edge of the die with a Sharpie.
5. Back the ram off, then tighten the die an additional 1/4 turn (move your witness mark to 9:00).
6. Run the round back up into the die, and tighten the lock nut under load.
7. Make up a dummy round to the correct OAL and see if it gages (it will).

 

[Gammon]

I judge my crimp by the mark left by the taper crimp die on the case mouth. forty thousandths is about right; that is about the width of a spark plug gap to you gear heads. Not very scientific, but it has served me well for many years.

 

[Paleoman]

Thanks! I'll give it a try on my next batch and try to spot check to see how the crimp compares (measured and visually with camera).

I did 40 rounds today, 20 at the starting load, and 20 at 0.2 grains more. I'll post a separate thread with some observations and questions.