Sighting in a Bullseye gun

[JimConway]

A few Weeks ago I was talking with a bullseye shooter about how they sighted their team's guns. First the team captain and the best shooter bench rest shot each gun and adjusted the sights for perfect alignment. Second the shooter that owned the gun shot the gun and the sights were readjusted for the actual shooter. I was very surprised at this approach and asked some more questions. It was explained the if the shooter alway hit the target at 9:00, the sights were set for 3:00. I explained that their approach was only putting a band-aid on to mask the shooters technical errors. This could work only if the shooter made the same error for every shot and that most shooters made a number of errors, but rarely the same one every time.
I suggested that a better approach was to work with each shooter to identify the error(s) and show them how to fix them.

I am not a bullseye shooter, nor do I play on TV. Therefore I would welcome your comments and other ideas. BTW, is this a normal approach for other bullseye teams?

 

[Tiktock]

So long as you use the exact same method time after time, sights are just simply a tool to get the bullets to go where you want. In 3pos, many shooters natually have a cant to their rifles which causes their sight adjustment to be non-standard. Some fix this by using a level in the aperature to keep it a perfect 90 degrees, others confirm that they always hold the rifle the exact same way and ajust sights accordingly. IMHO, theres no difference. Sights arent really linked to the bullet in any way other than aligning trajectory, so if you can consistantly shoot a certain way to a point where you can adjust sights from it, i'd say those are hardly "error corrections."

Now if you flinch half the time and adjust your sights because of a flinch, thats bad....because when you dont flinch you will be off....this only applies to actual reproducable techniques...if you dont do it 100% of the time, its not worth adjusting for.

 

[bpm990d]

I've had other people shoot my guns to see if things were working correctly with the gun or ammo, and it was not just me that was having problems; but I'm not really sure why they would have someone else sight it in. Seems kind of odd unless they asked someone else to shoot it to test ammo or something. I would not consider it an error, if it is repeatable and the person is shooting consistently.

B

 

[JimB]

my approach

I use a laser bore sight to first sight in my red dot. I agree you need
to correct any issues you may have before you proceed. Example:
trigger pull......

Next is to pracice and finally see what your patterns are and
adjust accordingly.

This assumes that your gun and sight are working properly.

JimB

 

[Admin]

I've had other people shoot my guns to see if things were working correctly with the gun or ammo, and it was not just me that was having problems; but I'm not really sure why they would have someone else sight it in. Seems kind of odd unless they asked someone else to shoot it to test ammo or something.

+1 I've never had a team captain or "best" shooter sight a gun in. I would take a new gun. Shoot a 50 yard and 25 yard target up, bring it to the team armorer and let him drift the sights until I was shooting center. Sgt. Swain was pretty good and usually got it right on the first try.

 

[Chris]

Bullseye is a totally different animal. Those guys drill in the art of repetition. And if they do the exact same thing every time, the actual methods matter little.

You'll see top shooters do things as if it was some kind of spiritual rite. Ammo in the same place, same motions to prepare. Some are just freaky when it comes to watching them.

But that is what you need to do.

 

[GTOShootr]

But that is what you need to do.

I think that's it. Whether it's a band-aid depends on the degree to which they are making the corrections. If the adjustments are made to make the difference between hits in the white over hits in the black, that's a band-aid. If the adjustments are made to make Xs over 9s or 10s, then it is more like dialing in to a greater degree. In that case, considering what they are aiming and that they are doing it all strong hand, they have to do whatever it takes to work within their wobble to get the Xs.

I had thought that Bullseye shooter make use of Ransom rests and bags to sight in.

 

[bpm990d]

I had thought that Bullseye shooter make use of Ransom rests and bags to sight in.

I guess if your hold isn't good enough to shoot a decent group then that might be a good way, but I've always just zeroed the center of my group.

B

 

[Admin]

I guess if your hold isn't good enough to shoot a decent group then that might be a good way, but I've always just zeroed the center of my group.

B

+1 We were always told to zero one handed at 25 and 50 yards.

 

[GTOShootr]

That's interesting. You wouldn't want to try to take human error out of the equation by using a bag or rest to sight in?

 

[Admin]

That's interesting. You wouldn't want to try to take human error out of the equation by using a bag or rest to sight in?

Not completely sure why they had us do it that way. I didn't have an issue doing what I was told considering it was Brian Zinns telling me and I got results.

 

[Dan S]

That's interesting. You wouldn't want to try to take human error out of the equation by using a bag or rest to sight in?

Only for testing ammo. Sighting in is done the same way you shoot, one handed. You adjust the sights to center the group that your wobble produces.

 

[Tiktock]

That's interesting. You wouldn't want to try to take human error out of the equation by using a bag or rest to sight in?

I'd say that simply tells you where the POI is when the gun is on a rest and your eyes are viewing the sights from that angle and setup. That will only create a POI shooting gun if you also hold the gun in the same manner and have the exact same factors in play during normal shooting. Everyone I know who shoots bullseye simply adjusts the sights so that their scores reflect in the best possible way.

If you cant shoot well enough to even notice a deviation between a rest-sighted gun and your normal shooting, all this is a moot point and you should be sticking to rest-sighting the gun until your groups improve to a point where you can identify the deviation and adjust accordingly. If youre flinching all over the target and just happen to flinch high more often, adjusting for the flinch isnt going to help you much. If, on the other hand, you "thumb" the gun in the exact same way each time to a degree that you can 100% predict the amount of impact movement your style causes, thats a different situation.

IMHO, no one should be adjusting their sights to their shooting style until you are well up the ladder, and by that point, you will have already done so.

 

[Neptune Cat]

Only for testing ammo. Sighting in is done the same way you shoot, one handed. You adjust the sights to center the group that your wobble produces.

The problem I have for this, is that it will only work for one distance.
Which is OK for gallery. To shoot bullseye at different distances I
don't see how you can compensate for human errors by changing
your sights.

 

[Admin]

The only sight adjustments I made once I had my groups centered was going from 50 slow fire to 25 timed and rapid. That adjustment was only for elevation.

 

[Tiktock]

The problem I have for this, is that it will only work for one distance.
Which is OK for gallery. To shoot bullseye at different distances I
don't see how you can compensate for human errors by changing
your sights.

If you are consistant in your "error" this is a moot point. You will need to adjust your bench-zeroed pistol for different ranges exactly as you will need to adjust your hand-zeroed gun. If you arent consistant as a bench rest, or close enough that you can meausre your deviation from benched-zero, you shouldnt be zeroing from your hold anyways, as you wont even know where your groups are centered.

 

[GTOShootr]

Only for testing ammo. Sighting in is done the same way you shoot, one handed. You adjust the sights to center the group that your wobble produces.

Do you sight your STI in like that? Would

You guys have me thinking. I actually just disappeared from work for an hour and ran down to the range for a 100 rounds. I don't know... the only verdict is that I might have to try it again tomorrow to do some more experimenting.

 

[Dan S]

Do you sight your STI in like that? Would

You guys have me thinking. I actually just disappeared from work for an hour and ran down to the range for a 100 rounds. I don't know... the only verdict is that I might have to try it again tomorrow to do some more experimenting.

Steve,
No, I sight in my STI using two hands. That's the way it's shot 99% of the time. Would you pattern a shotgun clamped on a bench? No, you do it off your shoulder to check the fit of the gun for you.

 

[TY43215]

The more I am learning about bulls eye the more I can understand why they would have the best shooter on the team shoot and zero the gun. It now adds to the mental part of the game. He did it so I should be able to.

When I put the dot on my 617, I zeroed it with sand bags then adjusted to to real conditions. With the Ruger, I didn't bother with the sand bags. Physical defects throw my stance off to one side and the POI of a zeroed gun change also. Actually, I find the more tired I am the more I shoot low right.

If the owner of the gun has a bad back, bad knees, one leg shorter than the other or a host of other problems, his sights will zero different from someone else. He needs to zero as he shoots.

 

[GTOShootr]

Steve,
No, I sight in my STI using two hands. That's the way it's shot 99% of the time. Would you pattern a shotgun clamped on a bench? No, you do it off your shoulder to check the fit of the gun for you.

I actually let Matt pattern the shotgun. He's got all that extra weight that makes it easier for him and he's got the SL900 with all that 12ga ammo.

 

[Chris]

Besides, you can't accurately zero a handgun from a machine rest. The machine and your body provide different support. While that support doesn't matter a whole heck of a lot, it DOES change the impact position a little and when you are shooting at an X ring hardly larger than the bullet itself, it makes the difference between an X and a 10.

 

[Greg Derr]

Good Thread. I think that there may be a little misunderstanding on who zeros what. On most military BE teams, if the gun is worked on and zero changed, an armorer may set the zero to get it on paper. To get on an AMU or USMC team you are already a " master" or "high master" shooter. The shooter will then prefect the zero to his or her hold. Some use six o'clock, center or subsix hold. Since we all have diffrent eyes and may or may not wear glasses one persons zero can be very different from another.

The Ransom Rest is used to check for accuracy of the arm and or ammo. Some shooters use the bench rest for this, but it is not considered scientificly accurate..

Greg Derr