Smith & Wesson M&P semi-autos

[delgrifith]

I have 2 M&P's and love them both. One has been massaged by Burwell so it rocks and the other has the trigger the rest of the world gets and it's also a great gun. I would recommend this gun to anyone.

What was the turn around time for Burwell?

 

[PistolPete]

It was about 4-6 weeks but I think he is longer now. If you have another gun it's worth the wait.

 

[Lugnut]

I think Greg Derr said he does it with the stock MA parts.

PM incoming.

 

[Supermoto]

I don't think its fair to condemn a gun based on a lawyer's trigger, especially when a fix is so easily obtainable. Its like saying the 1911 with the tiny original sights was terrible and no one should buy one. The problem is an easy fix

All of the M&P I have fired or played with had nice triggers and one had a excellent trigger but was a S&W Factory shooters gun.

 

[vellnueve]

What was the turn around time for Burwell?

Mine was back in a week.

 

[BruceP]

I'm one of those who bought the M&P because it felt great in my hands the first time I picked it up. That said, it didn't take long for me to hate the trigger. This was my first handgun and I sought out Jim's help because I couldn't hit a damn thing with it. I thought it was me (admittedly some of it was, but not all). Jim shot it last summer and immediately dubbed it the "gun from hell". Unfortunately, I'm probably the "proud" owner of the gun with the ~20lb pull that he referenced in the first post.

Well, I had a trigger job done with stock MA parts and there was no discernible difference afterwards. However, I did dry fire an M&P in FL a couple weeks ago and that gave me hope, the trigger felt great right out of the box. I think I'll follow the advice Lugnut gave me a long time ago and replace the sear assy, trigger bar, and return spring.

 

[M1911]

Who did the trigger job for you?

 

[AndyL]

M&P

Jim,

I am going to have to jump on the wagon with Jim. I am not impressed with the M&P at all. I think it has some SUPERB ergonomics and is a very very good start for a decent pistol, it just needs to evolve (I would love to see it in 5 years if they improve it).

Has any cracked a floorplate yet having the rounds dump out (along with spring and follower)? A few duty guns have popped floorplates leaving perfectly good guns as single shots (practice your speedloads!).

I was really looking forward to arguing with Jim over this, I'll have to find another topic and attack him!



Andy

 

[Fsorrent]

Jim,

I am going to have to jump on the wagon with Jim. I am not impressed with the M&P at all. I think it has some SUPERB ergonomics and is a very very good start for a decent pistol, it just needs to evolve (I would love to see it in 5 years if they improve it).

Has any cracked a floorplate yet having the rounds dump out (along with spring and follower)? A few duty guns have popped floorplates leaving perfectly good guns as single shots (practice your speedloads!).

I was really looking forward to arguing with Jim over this, I'll have to find another topic and attack him!



Andy

Mine HAS....NOT FUN.

 

[JimConway]

Andy Langlois

I suggest that you all pay attention to anything that Andy says. He knows what he is talking about. He was a police officer for many years and a competition shooter. I am also proud to say that he is my friends and one of the founders of Neshooters.
He now makes (sews) leather products such as slings and holsters that are as good as it gets. I must say that he does seem to have a penchant for Pink things like holsters and such.

One the more serious side Andy and I are working together to put the finishing touches on a new way to carry a spare magazine. If you carry a semi, you should also carry a spare mag. Remember that the most common MALF on semis are either mag or ammo related. We are going to call it the NES Covert Mag Pouch. I did a short presentation to the guys going with us to Front Sight last weekend. We will have a lot more on this in a few weeks

 

[JimConway]

Carry Options other than M&Ps

If you look closely at the top gun instructors, you will find that there are only a few guns that they will carry. Mostly, I see 1911s and Glocks, with an occasional SIG or XD. It is hard to find a 1911 without a good trigger. For those of you that prefer Glocks, the factory trigger is okay but not great. The can easily be fixed for well less than $100.00 and 20 minutes of work, which you can do yourself. When Gabe first shot my Glock 19 in a class, all that he said was "Wow, please tell me what you did to make it so nice"
Most SIGs can have the trigger replaced easily in a few minutes for about $70.00. Again, you can do it yourself

With the exception of the XD, we can get all of these guns here in MA

 

[Supermoto]

Jim,

I am going to have to jump on the wagon with Jim. I am not impressed with the M&P at all. I think it has some SUPERB ergonomics and is a very very good start for a decent pistol, it just needs to evolve (I would love to see it in 5 years if they improve it).

Has any cracked a floorplate yet having the rounds dump out (along with spring and follower)? A few duty guns have popped floorplates leaving perfectly good guns as single shots (practice your speedloads!).

I was really looking forward to arguing with Jim over this, I'll have to find another topic and attack him!



Andy

The M&P has superb ergos, a trigger that can be easily modified, good aftermarket support like sights, holsters mag extension etc. what is the gun lacking?

 

[JimConway]

The problem is not that a person can get the trigger fixed, but that most folks do not do anything. If fact most people would be hard pressed to even name even one Gunsmith.

 

[Adam_MA]

II did a short presentation to the guys going with us to Front Sight last weekend. We will have a lot more on this in a few weeks

And it's a great idea, I can't wait to see how the one in leather will come out.

 

[Lugnut]

The problem is not that a person can get the trigger fixed, but that most folks do not do anything. If fact most people would be hard pressed to even name even one Gunsmith.

Ok- now this M&P bashing is getting out of control. For the record I don't carry my M&P however I've used it quite a bit in competitions and haven't had any mags break apart on it. Wrt- triggers I'm not personally convinced you need a 3 or even a 4lb trigger for a great defensive gun so comparing something to a 1911 isn't always fair IMO. I'm fine with the std Glock trigger with no mods or the std M&P trigger.

Burwell IS a highly regarded M&P smith that I have heard NOTHING bad about. I've personally talked to him about what he does and purchased some stuff from him. Some people have already posted about his great work. He knows is stuff IMHO. Remember also that the M&P platform is relatively new compared to the other models you menitoned... I'm sure some other smiths will become more versed with M&P as time goes on.

For the record--- I've seem more than a fair share of problems with 1911s AND Glocks.. so they aren't imune to problems either.

 

[JimConway]

Ok- now this M&P bashing is getting out of control.

For the record--- I've seem more than a fair share of problems with 1911s AND Glocks.. so they aren't imune to problems either.

When I started this thread, my intent was not to bash the M&P, but rather to bash S&W for shipping guns that do not meet their own specifications. according to S&W service people that I have discussed this with the trigger pull weight is supposed to be 10 pounds. This a little heavy for my tastes, but entirely managable.
I have been repeatedly told by the S&W service people that it is impossible to have the trigger pull weights that I have seen and measured. They simply do not want to hear anything about this.
I am sure that the M&P will be a fine gun after they get all of the kinks out.

Anything designed and made by man, can break or otherwise malfunction. I have also seen this happen. BTW, I am still waiting for the first problem with my Glock 19 - over 30,000 rounds and still ticking

 

[JimConway]

Adam
The first one in leather is on the way to me as we speak

 

[Lugnut]

When I started this thread, my intent was not to bash the M&P, but rather to bash S&W for shipping guns that do not meet their own specifications. according to S&W service people that I have discussed this with the trigger pull weight is supposed to be 10 pounds. This a little heavy for my tastes, but entirely managable.

Fair enough Jim. I too was surprised at the MA pull and you're probably correct in that some seem to be well over 10lbs. FWIW I DO NOT think 10lbs is manageable.... but that's me.

Anything designed and made by man, can break or otherwise malfunction. I have also seen this happen. BTW, I am still waiting for the first problem with my Glock 19 - over 30,000 rounds and still ticking.

Yeah- I'll agree, Glocks are damn reliable.... I did mention they are my choice of a carry gun didn't I?

 

[hminsky]

I had never encountered the MA 10 lb trigger pull until recently. I picked up a Sig to try it out, and burst out laughing when I tried to pull the trigger.

 

[scooter]

I got an M&P40 and thought there was a saftey when going to pull the trigger.Even after 600 rounds thru it nothing eased up.Dan Burwell got it to a 4lb pull and it really is a easy gun to shoot now.I carry this gun now but am replacing it with a Sig239 for summer carry.I too laughed when I first dry fired it

 

[AndyL]

M&P/Leather

Ok, flogging this horse to hell and back....

What I have found is that the M&P with its LOOOOOOONG reset is hard to shoot quickly for the average guy (and good shooters) Compare split times with the M&P to your other guns, you'll find that they are rather lengthy times.

re: Leather

Pocket Mag Pouch thingies are in the works, Jim has a sexy Brown one, Mike has Black one, I have a few suede (grey) made up for those who want some (1911/single stack). Photos in my "dealer" section of Northeastshooters.com.

Andy

 

[Lugnut]

Ok, flogging this horse to hell and back....

Yeah... I hear ya... but....

What I have found is that the M&P with its LOOOOOOONG reset is hard to shoot quickly for the average guy (and good shooters) Compare split times with the M&P to your other guns, you'll find that they are rather lengthy times.

... this also can be easily remedied with some simple trigger work.

I guess what I'm ultimately getting at is if this gun just physically works for you and feels good (and it does for me) I wouldn't hold back just because of the trigger... heck with the money back and free mags and a trigger job you still get a hell of deal if you ask me. Only reason not to is if for some reason you just want something out of the box.

 

[Supermoto]

Ok, flogging this horse to hell and back....

What I have found is that the M&P with its LOOOOOOONG reset is hard to shoot quickly for the average guy (and good shooters) Compare split times with the M&P to your other guns, you'll find that they are rather lengthy times.

What are you talking about for an increase in splits... couple of hundreths, wouldn't be tenths

I don't run fast splits, I can't pull the trigger faster than I can see the sights on any of my guns, except the revolver, it doesn't matter if I am shooting at a berm or controlled pairs, I can only get my finger to go so fast doesn't matter if it is a 1911, shotgun or rifle.

 

[JimConway]

Supermoto
The secret of shooting faster is to see what you need to see to make the shot. If you can keep all the rounds in a 4" circle you are good to go. Since you will not shoot as well under stress, the 4" group is a good goal. Just as an example of seeing what you need to see, do this the next time that you go to the range at about 5 yards
Fire one perfect shot at the bullseye then
Fire one shot with the front sight blade about half way out of the notch, then
Fire one shot with the front sight blade about half way down in the notch, then
Fire one shot with the front sight to the left so that there is no light on the left of the rear sight, and finally
Fire one shot with the front sight to the right so that there is no light on the right of the rear sight.
Now look at where the shots hit. You should have a small group about 2.5" to 3" big.
What this little test is showing you is the if you have the front sight anywhere in the notch, you will get combat effective hits at this distance. You will not have to spend as much time lining up the sights and can fire faster. I suggest that you repeat this drill at other ranges between 3 yards to 10 yards to find out what you need to see at each range.

 

[jar]

Supermoto
The secret of shooting faster is to see what you need to see to make the shot. If you can keep all the rounds in a 4" circle you are good to go. Since you will not shoot as well under stress, the 4" group is a good goal. Just as an example of seeing what you need to see, do this the next time that you go to the range at about 5 yards
Fire one perfect shot at the bullseye then
Fire one shot with the front sight blade about half way out of the notch, then
Fire one shot with the front sight blade about half way down in the notch, then
Fire one shot with the front sight to the left so that there is no light on the left of the rear sight, and finally
Fire one shot with the front sight to the right so that there is no light on the right of the rear sight.
Now look at where the shots hit. You should have a small group about 2.5" to 3" big.
What this little test is showing you is the if you have the front sight anywhere in the notch, you will get combat effective hits at this distance. You will not have to spend as much time lining up the sights and can fire faster. I suggest that you repeat this drill at other ranges between 3 yards to 10 yards to find out what you need to see at each range.

+1 on this drill. Also, try point shooting at close range looking at the target, with the sights below your line of sight.

 

[PistolPete]

Let me just add that Supermoto is NOT an average shooter. He knows more about shooting and is more skilled than most anyone out there. He's not a person that shoots a few times a year but prob. shoots between 500-1000 rounds a week and he does a ton of practice.

I agree with everything he says regarding the trigger. You can't say that a gun is NO good and that people shouldn't buy it because of a poor trigger pull. We all know it's an easy fix and most guns you buy today need trigger work even from a well known manufacturer unless you are spending $2500+ on said gun.

 

[Supermoto]

Supermoto

Fire one shot with the front sight blade about half way out of the notch, then

Front sight Blade? Notch? I'm not familar with these terms.
Those are good tips and will help people learn what is an acceptable sight picture and to see only what needs to be seen.

He's not a person that shoots a few times a year but prob. shoots between 500-1000 rounds a week and he does a ton of practice.

I've cut back alot this year, maybe 150 a week, with alot more dry fire, but I think I'm going have to practice more to keep up with you

 

[MFP4073]

I've cut back alot this year, maybe 150 a week, with alot more dry fire, but I think I'm going have to practice more to keep up with you

 

[TY43215]

The problem is not that a person can get the trigger fixed, but that most folks do not do anything. If fact most people would be hard pressed to even name even one Gunsmith.

Jim, your original statement is irresponsible. The statement above applies to 1911s, Sigs, Glocks, Revolvers, and any other hand gun used for serious situations.

I have owned a M&P in 9MM that Burwell did the trigger on. I have owned a M&P in 45 that the trigger needed nothing. My first M&P and the one I still own is in 40 and 357SIG. It is a carry gun, a competition gun, and a reliable firearm. The trigger and sights on this were done by Burwell back when he was to only one doing them.

I have felt Greg Derr's trigger job and must say he does a real fine job.

Most new shooters buying a new firearm will not take the time to have it tuned. With their limited knowledge they figure this is the way it is. In regards to revolvers, once they have seen my action work on carry guns or my 5# DA trigger on a competition revolver, they realize factory is not the only option.

Any responsible trainer would advise a student of the options available in gun smithing.

The responsible statement in a thread like this would have been

" If you plan to buy a MA S&W M&P, plan to spend money on an after market trigger job"

That is a true statement.

Regards,

 

[Pyano]

I think I'm going have to practice more to keep up with you

Pete's flying and hitting AA.