I really feel bad for you guys in MA...The M&P has been a great gun(for me) it is super comfortable in my hand, making it accurate, the trigger(purchased in CT) is fine at ~6lbs with a clean consistant break and smooth as silk(no grinding). I shot it for almost 2hours last Friday going through hundreds of Winchester & Magtech FMJ rounds without a single problem.
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Smith & Wesson M&P semi-autos
- Thread starter JimConway
- Start date
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ericdimarzio
I finally broke down today and gave Greg Derr a call today and was pleasantly surprised. He said that e can bring my 9c down to 5lbs for a grand total of $60!!!!!! which is $20 or so less than another gunsmith of lesser acclaim quoted me. According to the many posts his reputation is top notch and at that price I would be an idiot to pass it up even if his work is half as good as many poster's claim. Thank you for the reccommendation.
Just my two cents, similar to what a lot of guys have alreaday said:
1) I love my full size M&P 40. Best "feeling" (in my hand) firearm I've ever held. Sold my Glock 22 and gave up the full capacity magazine option I had with the Glock to get myself into an M&P.
I've shot it enough with this trigger that I'm used to it and shoot fine with it. That said, see "3", below.
I liked it so much I just traded my G27 for an M&P .40 compact.
2) Yes, the Mass trigger is not the best. Like others said, don't blame S&W, blame our State government for ridiculous micro management legislation.
3) Everyone I've talked to that has had Greg Derr work on their M&P has had great things to say about the results. I'll send my full size to him sooner or later, then the compact. I may be used to the heavy pull but why not strive for even better, especially for so little money.
I would hate to see someone dismiss the gun out of hand (so to speak![[wink]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/002.gif "Wink [wink]")
) without having had a chance to try it.
I've never owned a .45, but an M&P in brown and black may be my first. Anyone know why Four Season sent theirs back to the factory? (as referenced earlier in this thread)
I may start a new thread asking about anyone's experience with CT laser grips on their M&P's.
Thanks,
Steve
1) I love my full size M&P 40. Best "feeling" (in my hand) firearm I've ever held. Sold my Glock 22 and gave up the full capacity magazine option I had with the Glock to get myself into an M&P.
I've shot it enough with this trigger that I'm used to it and shoot fine with it. That said, see "3", below.
I liked it so much I just traded my G27 for an M&P .40 compact.
2) Yes, the Mass trigger is not the best. Like others said, don't blame S&W, blame our State government for ridiculous micro management legislation.
3) Everyone I've talked to that has had Greg Derr work on their M&P has had great things to say about the results. I'll send my full size to him sooner or later, then the compact. I may be used to the heavy pull but why not strive for even better, especially for so little money.
I would hate to see someone dismiss the gun out of hand (so to speak
) without having had a chance to try it. I've never owned a .45, but an M&P in brown and black may be my first. Anyone know why Four Season sent theirs back to the factory? (as referenced earlier in this thread)
I may start a new thread asking about anyone's experience with CT laser grips on their M&P's.
Thanks,
Steve
Let me start by saying I am not putting anyone down or flaming them !!!
I own a Mass M&P 40 FS, that is what this long topic is about.
It has the 10 Lb trigger, can I shoot it, yes, do I like the 10 Lb trigger, no. I can shoot it well even with the 10 Lb trigger. Yes it comes in right around 10 Lb's, I checked it on two scales.
I contacted S&W when I 1st bought it and asked if I sent it to them if they could change it the 6.5 Lb trigger, they said they could not because it was a Mass gun. They told me to send it to Burwell (he only works on M&P's now, no other gun) if I wanted to change it. I said if I do that it will be out of warrenty because I would have had the gun changed, S&W said yes.
The big thing that no one has said is if you change your trigger and mag. disconect you no longer have a legal Mass gun!!!
Now this is no big deal if you are useing it for matchs or bullseye or something like that. If it is your carry gun your asking for trouble. I have talked with S&W, many gun lawyers and gun dealers. I haven't gotten the same answer from any of them. What I have got is if you need to use your gun for self defence and you get a lawyer with a hair up his/her backside against you it isn't going to help that you changed the gun from Mass OKed gun.
I do agree with other statements Jim that you shouldn't be saying "don't buy it". You may not like them but others love them, as there sales in Mass are proff. Heck I remember people lineing up to buy them as they are right now for the 45's. You should have warned people about them, saying that it is your feeling about this gun. Myself I hate to buy something till I get to shoot it, I went to the S&W shooting center many times to make sure it was the gun I wanted.
OK that's my 2 1/2 cents worth.
David
I own a Mass M&P 40 FS, that is what this long topic is about.
It has the 10 Lb trigger, can I shoot it, yes, do I like the 10 Lb trigger, no. I can shoot it well even with the 10 Lb trigger. Yes it comes in right around 10 Lb's, I checked it on two scales.
I contacted S&W when I 1st bought it and asked if I sent it to them if they could change it the 6.5 Lb trigger, they said they could not because it was a Mass gun. They told me to send it to Burwell (he only works on M&P's now, no other gun) if I wanted to change it. I said if I do that it will be out of warrenty because I would have had the gun changed, S&W said yes.
The big thing that no one has said is if you change your trigger and mag. disconect you no longer have a legal Mass gun!!!
Now this is no big deal if you are useing it for matchs or bullseye or something like that. If it is your carry gun your asking for trouble. I have talked with S&W, many gun lawyers and gun dealers. I haven't gotten the same answer from any of them. What I have got is if you need to use your gun for self defence and you get a lawyer with a hair up his/her backside against you it isn't going to help that you changed the gun from Mass OKed gun.
I do agree with other statements Jim that you shouldn't be saying "don't buy it". You may not like them but others love them, as there sales in Mass are proff. Heck I remember people lineing up to buy them as they are right now for the 45's. You should have warned people about them, saying that it is your feeling about this gun. Myself I hate to buy something till I get to shoot it, I went to the S&W shooting center many times to make sure it was the gun I wanted.
OK that's my 2 1/2 cents worth.
David
You should edit this post before Scrivener sees it! ahah. Because seriously, there is nothing correct about your understanding of the AG regs.
Also, SW told me that a trigger job has no effect on the warranty unless it is part of the trigger system that needs repair (i.e. if my frame cracks, it has nothing to do with the trigger and SW will gladly replace it.)
Let's limit the misinformation on the board....
Um, no.![[rolleyes]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/042.gif "Roll Eyes [rolleyes]")
OK you say UM NO, why do you say that. If you say something as short as that don't.
Say why you say OM NO.
Why should I edit what was told to me by S&W and others, I'm not giving misinformation and don't see why you think I am.
S&W told me the same thing on my S&W 1911, I had a ambi safety put on and they told me that because they didn't do it my gun could be consided no longer under warrenty because I changed it.
I may not understand the AG regs but lawyers I talked to said they did, who do you want me to believe. I'm not saying you don't but have you been told different by the AG themself or been through a law suit.
Again I have no reason to lie and do not like someone saying I am. If I am wrong I will admit it but when S&W says they will not do it because it will no longer be a Mass Legal Gun you have to believe them.
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http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/search.php
The above link is your friend. All of these issues have been rehashed repeatedly and I'm not going to waste my time trying to explain it to you. If you don't believe it, tough.
The above link is your friend. All of these issues have been rehashed repeatedly and I'm not going to waste my time trying to explain it to you. If you don't believe it, tough.
A. The AG consumer regs ONLY APPLY TO DEALERS SELLING GUNS. There is NO MA STATUTE saying you can't modify a trigger.
B. Anecdotal evidence from the m&p boards shows beyond any doubt that S&W will not consider your warranty void for getting a trigger job. Furthermore, when I had my mag catch issue with my M&P40 I asked SW if it would be a problem that I had my trigger modified in the event that the new mag catches didnt solve the problem. They told me that it is no problem whatsover and if after a few new mag catches they would go so far as to completely replace the frame if needed. The trigger mod DOES NOT void the warranty.
You apparently haven't talked to any of the 3 lawyers on this board who specialize in firearms law, one of whom has posted that he himself had a Derr trigger job on his M&P 45.
I am not accusing you of lying, just failing to research. If you have bothered to look at chapter 180 and the AG consumer regs you would know that there is nothing illegal about trigger work.
Damn, Scriv is rubbing off on me.
Again, not trying to be a dick as we all understand how confounded the MA gun laws are but it's important to nip this misinformation in the bud because that is in fact what it is.
Here are the AG regs:
(1) It shall be an unfair or deceptive practice to sell a handgun without a safety device in violation of M.G.L. c. 140, § 131K.
(2) It shall be an unfair or deceptive practice for a handgun-purveyor to transfer or offer to transfer to any customer located within the Commonwealth any handgun which does not contain a mechanism which effectively precludes an average five year old child from operating the handgun when it is ready to fire; such mechanisms shall include, but are not limited to: raising trigger resistance to at least a ten pound pull, altering the firing mechanism so that an average five year old child's hands are too small to operate the handgun, or requiring a series of multiple motions in order to fire the handgun.
(3) It shall be an unfair or deceptive practice for a handgun-purveyor to transfer or offer to transfer to any customer located within the Commonwealth any handgun which does not contain a load indicator or magazine safety disconnect.
(4) 940 CMR 16.05(2) shall not apply to handguns which have a hammer deactivation device. 940 CMR 16.05(3) applies only to handguns that have a mechanism to load cartridges via a magazine.
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Trust me I want to believe, I hate the 10 lb trigger and want to legaly change it!!!!!!!!!!!
Your link only brings me to the main link, which one are you talking about ????????
I did talk to one of the lawyers here, granted it was only through the forum here and he just said something like "just go ahead and do it, you will be OK". Well I wasn't going to bank the farm (persay) on an answer like that. Yes I should have called him or went to see him as I don't blame him for giving a short answer on a fourm, with all the sue happy people today I don't blame him for a short answer.
As I just said in my last post I want to believe, it's just hard when you have S&W saying don't do it, but I guess you could look at it as S&W was covering there behind also from a law suit, everyone has to now a days. They had no idea if I was the AJ trying to catch them in a sting, after all the City of New York did it to gun shop owners.
Jezz thanks for your help, I wish everyone was as helpfull as you.
I go out of my way to help people, I guess you don't.
You're going out of your way to spread disinformation. I don't call that helping.
There are at least 50 M&P threads on this forum, and at least 3 dozen threads about the legality of modifying a trigger. If you're too lazy to go find them yourself, enjoy that trigger. People go out of their way to explain it out once or twice, but not after a dozen times.
There are at least 50 M&P threads on this forum, and at least 3 dozen threads about the legality of modifying a trigger. If you're too lazy to go find them yourself, enjoy that trigger. People go out of their way to explain it out once or twice, but not after a dozen times.
Well I guess we are only going to agree that we disagree. I'm to tried to be fighting with someone on a fourm, it's not worth it.
I have been going through old posts, nothing I find from a lawyer (or someone like that) that says anything. Just "hey I want to change my trigger" type of stuff. Seeing that you are a pro I thought you would help, not hinder.
This is getting way off the topic of a M&P, I'm done.
DavidC77, I understand your reluctance to do something that you've been told is illegal. That's prudent caution on your part. But Jhblaze1 has correctly pointed out that the regulations only apply to dealers selling guns, not people owning them. What I think S&W may have been talking about is C 140 S 123 (Conditions of Dealer Licenses). It's a hairy law to pick through, and it gets confusing quickly. But if interpreted overly liberally, the conditions of sale could apply to a MA gunsmith returning your modified gun to you, which would cause them to have to certify any gun they modified with the state through the standard series of tests just as they have to do for any gun they sell. Given that interpretation, a quick trigger job would be illegal for them to perform. I think this is an overly broad and ridiculous interpretation of the law, but I don't know what else they could be thinking of.
But in any case, even taking it to those extremes, it's only a problem for them, not for you. There is no statute on the illegality of you modifying your gun (or having it modified for you). Well, ok, there are a few; sawed-off shotguns, going full automatic, converting assault rifles to pre-ban. But nothing about trigger jobs.
If you don't believe us, you really only have two options. Contact (and pay) a lawyer professionally, or read through the laws yourself in their entirety.
Also, see this thread for a good discussion on MA handgun compliance laws.
But in any case, even taking it to those extremes, it's only a problem for them, not for you. There is no statute on the illegality of you modifying your gun (or having it modified for you). Well, ok, there are a few; sawed-off shotguns, going full automatic, converting assault rifles to pre-ban. But nothing about trigger jobs.
If you don't believe us, you really only have two options. Contact (and pay) a lawyer professionally, or read through the laws yourself in their entirety.
Also, see this thread for a good discussion on MA handgun compliance laws.
Thanks.
That looks like what it is with S&W, I saw on another forum where this person asked the same thing to S&W (this person deals with them alot by the sounds of it) and they told him that they are doing M&P work (through the PC Shop) now but they will not do any trigger work on a Mass gun.
Got to love Mass
![[rofl]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/013.gif "ROFL [rofl]")
, I just hope that GOAL has luck with the AJ in getting some of this BS stuff turned around, they are working on it.
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You are completely mixing up multiple issues. The AG's regulations concern what a dealer can sell, not what you can possess. You would know that if you had bothered to actually read the AG's regulations. It took me all of 30 seconds on google to locate the regulations. Here's the one concerning the weight of the trigger pull:
You are not a handgun-purveyor. You are not selling or transferring the handgun in question. The regulation governs what a handgun purveyor can do, not what a gun owner can do. Your gun is still legal in MA after a trigger job. Any assertion otherwise is simply false. Quite simply, this regulation does not apply to the situation that you described.
Here is the link to the AG's regulations. Read them before you post on this subject again:
http://www.mass.gov/?pageID=cagoter...t&f=government_Regulations_940CMR16&csid=Cago
Now, whether or not carrying a handgun with a trigger job might cause some added liability is a different kettle of fish entirely. If you told us exactly which lawyers you spoke with and exactly what they said, then we might have the basis for a discussion.
Btw, while Mas Ayoob has written about carrying a Glock with a NY trigger, I've also seen him carry 1911s. And those 1911s all had trigger jobs performed on them.
Not even worth that much.
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ericdimarzio
On a happier note, I just tried out my Derr modified trigger on my M&P 9 compact and love it!! I had him reduce the pull to 5lbs as I want this to eventually be a carry gun and it is smooth as silk even though it only has 150-200 rounds down the tube. I dropped the gun off on a wendsday evening and he had it finished saturday morning. With a $60-$65 pricetag it is a worthwhile investment for anybody who owns an M&P
I have allready agreed that I was wrong on some points
That is true, but what if I decide to sell the gun at some point, the way it reads could be taken as I'm the handgun-purveyor. yes / no ?
That is true and as I stated that was what was told to me by a lawyer.
That was uncalled for, I have in all these posts never put someone down, I have posted what was told to me by people that I talked to that are in posistions that you would think they know what they are saying.
This forum uses't to be fun to come to, this forum uses't to try and help people. All I see now are the high post count people being unkind to others. Not everyone knows everything and I though that was the idea of this forum in the 1st place. To have a fun place to come to with friendly people who where willing to help out our other shooting brothers and sisters.
I'm done on this topic, I'm sure someone will have a SA answer to that.
David
![[smile]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/001.gif "Smile [smile]")
W
wolf223
take in stride... worst case, ignore them... problem solved.
i have my M&P stock! LOL,
No. Once again, you are commenting on these legal issues and yet you appear to have made no effort to research what you are talking about. We already sent you a link to the regulations and suggested that you go read them. It appears that you did not, because this question is answered in the regulations.
The regulations define the term "handgun-purveyor". Oddly enough, you can find this definition in the section of the regulations entitled "Definitions."
Full text is here: http://www.mass.gov/?pageID=cagoter...lations_940CMR16&csid=Cago#16.01: Definitions
You're not a handgun-purveyor, even if you sell your handgun.
That is an opinion that has been (and will continue to be) hotly debated. Unless you tell us who that lawyer was and exactly what he said, then you aren't going to convince anyone.
Lawyers are like doctors; they specialize. The guy who wrote your will may be outstanding when it comes to handling family financial matters, but he may know next to nothing about MA gun laws and have zero experience in self defense cases. As a result, his opinion may be no more knowledgeable than anyone else's, yet you expect us to take his opinion as a truth. Why, exactly?
You claim to have spoken to "many gun lawyers." Exactly who are these gun lawyers and what did they say? I know Cross-X. I've exchanged e-mail with Scrivener. These are two of the more highly-regarded firearms attorneys in MA. I seriously doubt your post was an accurate portrayal of any advice Cross-X or Scrivener would have given you.
There aren't "many gun lawyers" in MA. I am aware of 4. Of those, I would trust the advice of two, the third I don't know but he has a good reputation, and the fourth is not someone I would trust. Since there aren't "many gun lawyers" in MA, I have a hard time believing that you "talked...with many gun lawyers." I have to believe that you were, at best, exaggerating your claims. Or at worst, you were deliberately misleading others to make your post appear more authoritative.
Perhaps you're finally learning something here. Many folks, yourself included, speak as though they know what they are talking about, when in fact they have no clue. And this often includes people you might think would know what they are saying. Many gun dealers are not that familiar with the law. Many police officers (including licensing officers) are not that familiar with firearms law. Trust them at your peril when it comes to MA laws. And if you come here and post that "X is true because a gun dealer told me so," don't be surprised if you get smacked around here (after we stop laughing). If you've been around gun shops for a while, you'll find that you hear some whoppers spoken from both sides of the counter. For example, a fellow in this forum was told the following in a gun shop:
Now that is freakin' hilarious.
Having fun is great. But when you post incorrect information about gun laws in an authoritative fashion then you can expect to get challenged. This is particularly true when you can not support your argument by referencing the appropriate statutes and regulations, which are available online. And when you were challenged, you got all defensive and angry about it. You were pointed towards the regulations in question, and yet it appears that you still have not read them.
When commenting on the law, you should be very careful to distinguish between what you believe to be illegal and what may, in your opinion, expose someone to increased risk. For example, if you are in MA and are not a police officer or in the military, possessing a post-ban, large capacity magazine is against the law. That is illegal.
In contrast, some folks would argue that using your own reloads for self defense might expose you to added risk in the event of a self-defense shooting. The theory being that the prosecutor could try to portray you in a bad light to the jury, saying something along the lines that "regular ammunition wasn't deadly enough for Mr. DavidC77, so he spent hours in his basement, hand-crafting specially deadly rounds, one at a time, yadda, yadda, yadda." This is clearly in the realm of opinion. It isn't illegal to use reloads for self defense. There are those who agree with this opinion (e.g., Ayoob) and there are those who don't.
But your post, when you said:
made no distinction between the two.
If you post here about legal issues, then you better know what you are talking about. If not, you will be quickly and mercilessly corrected. Heck, you never even got Scrivened!
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Thanks.
That looks like what it is with S&W, I saw on another forum where this person asked the same thing to S&W (this person deals with them alot by the sounds of it) and they told him that they are doing M&P work (through the PC Shop) now but they will not do any trigger work on a Mass gun.
Got to love Mass
FWIW, Trigger jobs on any gun in MA are legal, period end. About the only thing a trigger job will do to an "MA compliant" gun is make it not compliant- but that, however, is not "illegal".
Chances are if S+W says they won't touch an MA gun its because they don't want to even piss off the AGs office in the slightest way possible. Manufacturers who bother to certify stuff, trying to deflect attention from themselves is pretty much par for the course.
-Mike
Larocca Gunworks
I brought my M&P 40 to Mike for a trigger job. I love it. I actually like it better than my G23.
Mike`s turnaround time is about a week. He is located in Worcester, Ma. 508-754-2887
I brought my M&P 40 to Mike for a trigger job. I love it. I actually like it better than my G23.
Mike`s turnaround time is about a week. He is located in Worcester, Ma. 508-754-2887
