I would never allow someone near to do that more than once. I don't care who they are. First time they'll get a firm but friendly warning. After that I'll kick them out or leave myself. Don't EVER put up with that. That is my advice.
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Some people just plain scare me at the range!
- Thread starter Lugnut
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I would never allow someone near to do that more than once. I don't care who they are. First time they'll get a firm but friendly warning. After that I'll kick them out or leave myself. Don't EVER put up with that. That is my advice.
You are so on the money and for the life of me, I'm perplexed as to why that is - perhaps you can enlighten me. The two instances of poor range skills I have witnessed in the last 10-years have both involved LEOs. The most recent, involved an LEO and his M4 shooting, (mag dumping) at sniper cubes at a range that clearly does not allow reactive or ground targets, (it's built on ledge). The most serious happened several years ago, when I was sighting in my AR-15 at the 50-yard range. My back was to the officer as he was setting up several benches down at the 100-yard range. I was midway through a 20rd mag and stopped to check my target through the spotter. I made a quick scope adjustment and continued to sight in. Out of the corner of my eye, I see this guy walking down the fence line with a target board in hand going to set up his target!!!
![[shocked]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/007.gif "Shocked [shocked]")
Apparently, he felt "safe" or was impatient and too cocky to wait for me to finish up and clear the range. I yelled: "HEY!! THE RANGE IS HOT MAN!!!" He glanced at me, gave me a thumbs up and continued on. I cleared my weapon, packed up and left. In hindsight I should not have and should have reported him. I guess I had this twinge of paranoia reporting an LEO - I have since lost that paranoia...I was at the range which was fairly busy, about 10 guys were shooting and I was seating back in a chair with my electronic muffs on, looking at some targets when I saw a new member stop shooting and walk out of the booth and start sweeping up. I looked back down at my targets and heard some one yelling.
The new member was yelling, I'm going to go get my brass guys, stop shooting. I heard him but no one else had and were still shooting. He started to lift the bench in the booth to walk out on to the range.
I yelled at him to stop and he gave me a blank look, like what's the matter with you.
I threw the switch that turns on the cease firing lights and bell and then started yelling at him. What are you @#$%^&* crazy walking out on to a range when people are shooting!!!!
He said, I yelled at them I was going to do it and I wasn't going that far.
The new member was yelling, I'm going to go get my brass guys, stop shooting. I heard him but no one else had and were still shooting. He started to lift the bench in the booth to walk out on to the range.
I yelled at him to stop and he gave me a blank look, like what's the matter with you.
I threw the switch that turns on the cease firing lights and bell and then started yelling at him. What are you @#$%^&* crazy walking out on to a range when people are shooting!!!!
He said, I yelled at them I was going to do it and I wasn't going that far.
I do most of my shooting at bgr since it's most convenient, and while they do a great job of keeping an eye on folks when the bigger groups come in to share a lane and rent (especially with the dates they're trying to impress) I'll usually pack it in and leave ... you can't be too careful.
Our biggest problems are usually on Thursday nights went we open our indoor range to non-members and members who don't have indoor access yet. I know the frequent shooters and most I don't have to monitor that closely. The new ones that have zero experience are identifiable very quickly. Those I hover over and if they need correction, I will give it. For the most part, I don't have any dangerous actions. I will get the "turn in the lane" causing the muzzle to move sideways. That is corrected instantly. For the most part, two are not allowed in one lane unless I know one shooter is experienced and I can trust him/her. Parents with children are encouraged if the parent has experience. We don't need a clueless parent trying to teach a young child. That's why we offer the Basic Pistol/Rifle to kids.
I think the point is, for those who have the authority, these mistakes should be corrected immediately. There's a way to do it and not sound condescending or arrogant. When they don't take the hint, have them reviewed by the club. Everyone was a beginning at one time.
We are currently having a meeting with all law enforcement agency trainers that use our club within the next few months. Not that we have a problem with them. Pretty much the opposite except for very minor issues. But the trainers change frequently and we feel it is best to review the rules and operations of our ranges from time to time.
I think the point is, for those who have the authority, these mistakes should be corrected immediately. There's a way to do it and not sound condescending or arrogant. When they don't take the hint, have them reviewed by the club. Everyone was a beginning at one time.
We are currently having a meeting with all law enforcement agency trainers that use our club within the next few months. Not that we have a problem with them. Pretty much the opposite except for very minor issues. But the trainers change frequently and we feel it is best to review the rules and operations of our ranges from time to time.
well you know.... I dont think you can blame them alltogether and this goes into the conversation my Trooper buddy and I were having yesterday. Most cops these days have VERY, VERY limited range time. Other than the time they qualify a lot of them in the small town depts and also some of the bigger depts dont get to the range very much unless they are "gun guys." So what you have is Cops that are no more skilled and in some cases, less skilled than civilians that shoot all the time. They do their basic quals and some of them have the opportunity to go to schools like "S&W" for patrol rifle instructor schools or Glock or whatever because their departments send them. The other average every day cops dont get this opportunity. So the end result is their basic safety and weapons manipulation skills get rusty and in some cases disapear..... I see it all the time with my guys. And people I train with see it with theirs...
Every 3 years I have the great opportunity to go get recertified for "Pistol and Rifle Instructor/Armorer" and also all the Tactical stuff you can imagine because my dept is BIG, BIG on this stuff so I get to meet some GREAT people with lots and lots of awesome knowledge and after 11 years I never walk away without gaining some great info from these guys. I have learned so much through the years from these people and continue to be amazed by their skills. There is some incredible talent out there for sure. Truly amazing.
One of the things these people (some of them are Cops, Instructors, SF guys etc) will tell you is how highly untrained the average Officer is these days and its due to money, budget and other logistic issues that small towns and depts face. Matter a fact, the 3 negligent, unintentional or whatever you want to call it discharges we have had at our dept over the last 11 years were part time Cops.... and its just lack of training in my opinion. Lack of time, physical fittness (for all Tactical movement stuff) money for OT at the range etc. I only wish we were able to offer our Officers 50% of the training we as Instructors are lucky enough to get when we go away to schools. But our organization just does not allow for it. There are so many variables at stake in todays Security and LE world.
I guess the best thing we as safety concious shooters can do is be the best example we can be for these people (your average joe at the range, Cops etc.) and try to offer training when appropriate.
my 2 cents...
![[grin]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/041.gif "Grin [grin]")
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Don't most agencies give officers that want to train on their own time free ammo? I shoot with some LEO and that's what they told me.
I'll tell you what... whether the dept. had training money or not... if I depended on my firearm for my life AND job... I'd find a way to make it happen.
I'll tell you what... whether the dept. had training money or not... if I depended on my firearm for my life AND job... I'd find a way to make it happen.
Blitz1, I strongly urge you to get formal training. I know you've been shooting a long time, but lots of folks who have been doing so have acquired bad habits without realizing it. Join GOAL and take a basic pistol class with Jon Green at GOAL. At the worst, you will have spent maybe $65 and a day for a refresher, and met a really nice guy (Jon). At the best, it will open your eyes about bad habits you've gotten into.
As an instructor and range officer, the fellow I've had the most problem with is an old guy who has been shooting forever, was trained by the military (around WWII), and has some really bad habits.
Folks, when you see a problem person at the range, please correct them. If you are not comfortable correcting them, PLEASE submit a written report to the club leadership. We can't straighten out these knuckleheads if we don't know about them.
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You would think so but no. I've had to beg and then when I got it, "Don't tell anyone. OK?"
Its not that easy... believe me. As a Firearms Instructor / trainer at my facility I have tried. I have tried EVERYTHING you name it. I even go out to the range on my free time with some of our Officers and we shoot offline and do some training on our days off. That is the only way we can get extra time these days other than the basic quals. Its that bad seriously due to overtime etc. issues. It gets real hairy for sure. I cant get into all the details regarding my department and how we train for obvious reasons but you would think its a no brainer and you could get all the range time you need but I am telling you its tough... its real tough.... at least where I work. The old days...yes... no problem... these days.... NO WAY....
Some agencies do give Officers ammo and targets etc but ours does not. We used to offer free range days which were in addition to the basic qualification days. The Officers would just show up at the range on a day off if they wanted to and we would supply the ammo, targets etc and would work on basic fundamentals and manipulation drills and tactical movement drills etc. We would get into some neat stuff too depending on the caliber of the Officers that were there and their level of ability with a Firearm and physical shape for tactical movement. We could work on some neat stuff with some of the younger guys that were real sharp. Some of the other guys we worked on basic drawing, low ready tac movement stuff. It was great for all Officers because it was above and beyond the basic paid training Qualification days.
But a few years back the unions stepped in and wanted their guys to get paid for the free fire days. Of course you know what managment said to that seeing as we were supplying the ammo, guns, cleaning equipment, targets etc. All they had to do was show up and shoot our ammo for free and leave whenever they wanted. What more can you ask for??? When I was an Officer 8 years ago before I went to Training I used to take advantage of EVERY free fire day that came along. Unfortunately some of the guys that really want it cant get it because the conflict between union and managment that was created due to the pay.
That was the end of that...
anyways we do what we can for our guys and make the time for them on my spare time and theirs if they want to go to the range and work on stuff. So we can make it happen one way or another if they really want it. Some other depts are not that lucky though.
When asked I would offer a box or two. But where I worked, ranges were not all that available. Two indoor within a twenty mile radius. The range used for qualifications is only available when the department schedules it. Twelve departments use the range. Each department is 75 to 100 man strong. Each department gets four weeks a year. Add it up and there is no free time left.
While a few might go to the range, many more went to martial arts training. Three officers each have their own school and training is offered for free. Others have the credentials to teach and our PBA has it's own gym build in a warehouse offered by a local commercial real estate operation. Great for PR24 and collapsible baton training.
I have to agree with that in some respects. Many of the military and ex-military people that I shoot with take a somewhat casual approach, or should I say, Low key approach to basic safety and handling, compared to NON-Veteran shooters.
The only explanation I have for it is after being in an environment of firearms around you all the time, 24/7/, is that you expect yourself and others to keep weapons safe, avoid walking into a line of fire, and it just becomes somewhat second nature.
Honestly? No. If it was a mandated training on company time (OT) they would. The majority does enjoy the once a year Qual and what active shooter training we've done. For the most part, they are not motivated to do it on their own.
Out of about 80 officers. I'd say maybe 6-8 of us are what you'd call gun nuts and or hunters.
When they planned our new station, they included a state of the art indoor range. Sadly it was only included in the plans to "sell" the new building to the town. Once the building was approved, the range was the first thing dropped.
JonJ,
this is a 100% true statement regarding our guys too. Most of our guys only go to the range because they have to (tri anual basis for us) and not because they want to. They could care less about guns or tactical training on their days off.
A very small % of us as well are "gun nuts" and get all the training we can. I mean man, I basically live at the range for about 4 months total out of the year getting all our guys qualled (day fire, night fire and tactical/stress fire) and still on my days off I go play with my personal toys.
Of course most of the days when its play time for me and I dont have to work with other shooters and anylize (how you spell?????
![[thinking]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/010.gif "Thinking [thinking]")
)I go by myself on my days off I bring my NFA stuff and "FREAKIN UNLOAD" heavy amounts of automatic fire and have fun. At that point other than basic safety rules of thumb and range rules..... all the uniform (511 pants and red hat and range instructor shirt), target aquisition, correct sight alignment good posture crap goes right out the window for me.....![[rofl]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/013.gif "ROFL [rofl]")
I wear a pair of jeans and a wife beater put a cigar in my mouth and lock and load and blast my toys till they are too hot to handle or the neighbors get mad ha ha.. just kiddin.....no its fun though to go to the range and just have fun somtimes. I actually get sick of all the skill drills stuff and hi speed, low drag techniques and flavor of the day stuff. Its fun to just go dump hi volumes of rounds at 750rpm.... example.....http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v673/5150rob/?action=view¤t=MOV00962.flv
sorry got a little off topic there for a minute..... I couldn't help myself.... ![[rolleyes]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/042.gif "Roll Eyes [rolleyes]")
I have to admit that I’m not all that surprised by a lot of the stupid stuff I see on the range. It doesn’t take much to get a license and a gun. The ‘safety’ class I took to get my license was a joke – I never even saw a firearm, let alone learned how to handle one. And at public ranges, most of the people renting firearms don’t even have a license.
What surprises me is how competent gun owners are either completely oblivious of the unsafe behavior going on around them, or choose to ignore it and walk away.
We have this flood of people walking out onto a range without a clue to the basic rules, and nine times out of ten they probably don’t even realize what they’re doing because they’ve never been taught otherwise.
From my perspective, it’s OUR responsibility to teach them.
We, the firearms community, are the stakeholders in this situation. It’s our clubs and ranges, reputations and health that are put at risk by their unsafe behavior. And if we don’t change their behavior, no one else will.
So the next time you see someone doing something stupid at the range, don’t just ignore them. Walk up to them and set them straight. Rip them a new a**h*** if necessary. Or if you really don’t feel comfortable, tell someone who will. Because if you just walk away, they’re going to be back next week doing the same damn thing, and eventually someone is going to get hurt. And I sure as hell don’t want it to be me.
What surprises me is how competent gun owners are either completely oblivious of the unsafe behavior going on around them, or choose to ignore it and walk away.
We have this flood of people walking out onto a range without a clue to the basic rules, and nine times out of ten they probably don’t even realize what they’re doing because they’ve never been taught otherwise.
From my perspective, it’s OUR responsibility to teach them.
We, the firearms community, are the stakeholders in this situation. It’s our clubs and ranges, reputations and health that are put at risk by their unsafe behavior. And if we don’t change their behavior, no one else will.
So the next time you see someone doing something stupid at the range, don’t just ignore them. Walk up to them and set them straight. Rip them a new a**h*** if necessary. Or if you really don’t feel comfortable, tell someone who will. Because if you just walk away, they’re going to be back next week doing the same damn thing, and eventually someone is going to get hurt. And I sure as hell don’t want it to be me.
Thanks M1911, I surely will, I will take all of the training I can. GOAL is in Northborough right? That's where I grew up (well spent my younger years)
Even I know that these people represented in this thread are idiots, I mean challenged. I honestly can't that people could be so stupid. Wait. Yes, I can.
But I will most certainly take your advice; I totally understand what you're saying. Any additional training and education will only make me better/safer.
Thanks
Blitz1
Years back my lead firearm's instruction set up a IDPA type o scenario using several moving targets obtained from all member departments. People who had not interest at all wanted to shoot multiple runs. We are fortunate that our range has two 50 yard ranges with 270 degree berms. The berms are not about 50 feet high. The plus side of having a range in a landfill. After shooting the moving course they were required to shoot the state qualification course which is 100 rounds per firearm. Each officer shot almost two hundred rounds those days. Every qualification period we added to the course using motor vehicles and stress to make it more interesting.
If it is the same old course year after year, it gets boring. Due to FLSA regulations, you have to be careful that anything done outside of normal training is not in any way considered a job requirement or overtime will be required to be paid. Budgets are tight enough right now.
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I agree we need to step up to teach then, but at the same time, if you actually listen at the Basic Course, so much of it is common sense that it hurts! You cant teach common sense, believe me, Ive tried. Some people will just never "get it."
Other than they don't have the desire, want or are required to, no.
over 60 % of police officers accross the us don't shoot their duty weapon more than they are required to... I think it should be Federal Law for PO's to have to qualify at least 4-6 times a year, each qual being different every time.....
Yes, in Northborough, which is just up the road a piece from where you are. http://www.goal.org
Jon Green is an excellent instructor, great shot, and good guy. You'll enjoy his class.
You could also call waynes weaponry in W. Boylston, he has certified instructor at his place to thats a little more flexible with scheduling.... and has spent alot time training and a lot of money to get some of the best training..... 508-835-3690
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Yeah, just what we need, more federal laws telling municipalities how to waste
tax money.
(keep in mind, in order for that to work, all of it would have to be done on the clock.... )
Hell, Feds don't even qualify that much, save for maybe Air Marshals.
I'm not against better training for LEOs, but the "there ought to be a law" approach is the wrong way. That's precisely the
reason why our country is starting to go off the rails... because too many people have been saying that phrase, and too
many legislators are all too eager to act on it as a form of job security.
-Mike
Want to know what scared me at the range today? Well do ya? I got scared at just how much I liked the Sig220 Clinotus let me try out....Now I want one and I'm scared at what the wife will think if she finds it...
How could a law like that be a bad one though, ive seen way to many cops shoot, to think that it would not benefit the safety of the general public.... especially with union reps pissing and moaning about every little nook and cranny and the lazyness of most officers not wanting to do extra for themselves....
I'm with drgrant on this one. Firearms training is certainly a subject every PD should be actively discussing, but the whole "let's make a law about it" approach is what's gotten this damn state into the the mess it's in.
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