Steel .223 Short Stroking Despite Higher Velocity

SubieGuy4

SubieGuy4

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I know steel ammo in an AR is a hotly contested issue but I had what seemed like a weird occurrence when I put some Tula .223 through my new AR build on its first range day.

Took my new middy AR to the range Saturday. Put 100 or so rounds of American Eagle .223 through it along with about 20 rounds of 5.56. No issues at all. Then I switched to Tula steel to try to use some of it up. Fired two rounds and noticed they felt softer. Then went to shoot a faster string and it only got out one round before it jammed. It was a nasty double feed that the standard procedure couldn't clear. Had to get a rod and bang them out. Bullets and brass mangled on both rounds. Once cleared I went back to trying steel and didn't get any more jams but probably 1 in 15 was ejecting but not feeding (short stroke). Now all this sounds like they just aren't shooting hot enough to cycle the gun but here's the twist. I chrono'd the American Eagle and Tula. Tula was clocking in at 2960fps while American Eagle was coming in about 75fps slower.

So the Tula isn't shooting softer, despite feeling softer and not cycling as well. What do you guys think? Extra friction of the steel during extraction slowing the bolt down? Could a difference in powder type lead to equal/greater velocity but lower pressures at the gas port? Seemed counter-intuitive that it would go faster but cycle slower.
 
How well lubed in the rifle? I was having similar issues and once I make sure everything was lubed, it was good to go.
 
noxin said:
How well lubed in the rifle? I was having similar issues and once I make sure everything was lubed, it was good to go.
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It's a nickel boron BCG and it was pretty well lubed with Frog Lube. I know ARs like to run wet but I don't really think this was an issue seeing as a lot of people run nickel boron BCGs with no lube and good results.

Golddiggie said:
Probably the coating they put on the steel cases was gumming up your chamber causing the issues.
Click to expand...

Can't imagine this was it for two reasons. First, I was keeping the gun hot so if the mythical lacquer buildup was happening it would have been staying melted. Second, I don't buy into that myth as there's a lot of more comprehensive coverage on the lacquer which reveals it does not melt at gun chamber pressures. The reason that myth exists is because steel ammo doesn't expand to seal with the chamber as well so more fouling gets in the chamber and leads to hangups which people think is caused by the lacquer. I know not everyone agrees on this, but either way this was happening with a hot gun.
 
SubieGuy4 said:
Can't imagine this was it for two reasons. First, I was keeping the gun hot so if the mythical lacquer buildup was happening it would have been staying melted. Second, I don't buy into that myth as there's a lot of more comprehensive coverage on the lacquer which reveals it does not melt at gun chamber pressures. The reason that myth exists is because steel ammo doesn't expand to seal with the chamber as well so more fouling gets in the chamber and leads to hangups which people think is caused by the lacquer. I know not everyone agrees on this, but either way this was happening with a hot gun.
Click to expand...

Tell that to the people who have issues with steel ammo in their guns that is due to the coatings they use. Not all of it lacquer either, there's polymer coatings. Keeping the gun 'hot' means it will melt that stuff off faster than if it wasn't.

Personally, I just run brass case ammo in my AR. I'm more old school and use brass case ammo in all my guns. I'm not so stingy that I need to use the cheap ammo. Actually, I'll be looking to reload .223 soon, so my cost per round will be lower.
 
Golddiggie said:
Tell that to the people who have issues with steel ammo in their guns that is due to the coatings they use. Not all of it lacquer either, there's polymer coatings. Keeping the gun 'hot' means it will melt that stuff off faster than if it wasn't.

Personally, I just run brass case ammo in my AR. I'm more old school and use brass case ammo in all my guns. I'm not so stingy that I need to use the cheap ammo. Actually, I'll be looking to reload .223 soon, so my cost per round will be lower.
Click to expand...

Generally in the same boat. I won't be buying steel .223 ever again once I've used up the 500rds I have. For 9mm I don't mind the occasional instance of rounds binding up in the mag. A tap and they start feeding again, and my Glock has never hung up. The savings over time is appealing with .223 steel but not if it's going to hang up a lot. Based on my research steel .223 also does more damage to an AR than steel 9mm does to a Glock.
 
i have no problems with lacquered bear or poly wolf in any of my guns including ARs
i don't buy into lacquer myth either. or chromed chamber vs un-chromed. some of my guns have chromed chambers others do not still no issues with steel-case ammo.

If i remember correctly, when luckygunner did their test of russian ammo, failure rate was so marginally insignificant compare to more expensive brass cased ammo that it's was supposed to clear this brass vs steel argument once and for all. i had some doubts in that respect but they cleared for me and they were very convincing.

IMHO, all the problems that people fault steel ammo for are stemming from the fact that steel case is a lot less forgiving to chamber specs than brass case. if your chamber is near the upper end of the dimensional tolerances allowed than you will have lesser chamber pressure more gasses pushing through backwards due to less precise seal. problem is also can be due to chamber being rough from using reamer that is near the end of its useful tool-life. who knows. there are so many manufacturers of AR barrels and possibly just as many variations between them. some might be better than others, cheaper, more/less precise or closer/farther to 'goldilocks' parameters.

anyhow, what am i driving at is that it's *most likely* 99% of the time a gun issue and not an ammo issue. i've been lucky so far to get guns that eat steel w/o problems but who knows maybe my next gun will be less lucky.

i do not claim some expertise knowledge on steel ammo vs gun chamber interaction. i'm just merely voicing conclusions of my own thought process and throwing it in the pile of common knowledge. take it or hate it.
 
Not much to add personally, I'll let Erik Winter, gunsmith at Windham Weaponry, do the talking.

FROM THE GUNSMITH'S BENCH
79.jpg

Erik Winter, Gunsmith

TOPIC: Our Thoughts on Steel Cased Ammunition

 Pretty much daily I get the question "Is it okay to shoot steel cased ammo in my Windham Weaponry AR15?"

With ammunition in short supply and good ammo priced very high, many people are buying cheaper steel cased, bi-metal jacket ammunition from Wolf, TulAmmo, Herter's, etc.

While I don't generally recommend steel cased ammo, it's not going to hurt your rifle in limited amounts. If used exclusively however it will reduce the barrel life by about 4,000-5,000 rounds. Most if not all of this ammo uses a copper coated steel jacketed "bi-metal" bullet which increases wear on the barrel. In testing done by LuckyGunner Labs, rifles using Federal brass cased ammo were still shooting decent groups up to 10,000 rounds. With steel cased ammo the groups were all over the place at 6,000 rounds with many bullets tumbling and key holing.

The other problem with steel cased ammo is that the cases don't expand the same way that brass cases do. This causes carbon build up between the case and the chamber wall. This build up can cause stuck cases. Sometimes these cases will stick so severely that it is difficult to remove them even with a cleaning rod. It is even worse if you fire a bunch of steel cased ammo then fire brass cased right behind it in a dirty chamber. Then the brass case expanding normally really sticks to the carbon left behind in the chamber.

So if you are going to use steel cased ammo I recommend breaking the rifle in with decent brass cased ammo first. Up to 100 rounds, the more the better. Another problem with steel cased ammo is a lot of it seems to be somewhat underpowered which can cause short stroking issues. If the gun is broken in first with brass cased ammo this helps seal the gas system somewhat which will make the lower powered steel cased ammo work a bit better. Also, make sure to keep your chamber clean. Keep in mind that it is going to foul pretty quickly with steel cased ammo.

Here are two excellent articles regarding the issues with steel cased ammunition that I always recommend. One of them is the excellent LuckyGunner test.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/edu18.htm

http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/brass-vs-steel-cased-ammo/
 
what i got out of it at the time, was the fact that it's steel cheaper to run steel and replace barrel after 5-6k rounds than sticking exclusively to brass.
off course this would apply only to budget and mid-tier guns and not upper end guns where obviously barrel would cost more than $100-150 to replace. or competition guns that need to be 'babied' like a .... baby.

all my guns are cheap, i clean them often and problems of steel ammo do not bother me. haven't had to replace any barrels yet, but i'm low volume shooter so not expecting that for a while. and untill then shooting steel saves me a lot of cash for other things important in life.

if i could afford to buy brass only i probably would but i cant so i make do with what i can afford.
 
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Read the lucky gunner article posted above, specifically why tula failed. What kind of barrel do you have, and what size is the gas port?

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I had issues with steel in my STG 556, changed the gas port setting and work fine (wolf steel not Tula). Maybe superstition maybe not


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If you are using a 5.56 nato chamber, there is no reason it should not run steel case ammo. Something is wrong with the gun that has narrowed the window of reliability. Could be lube, could be port size, could be gas block installation.

What barrel are you using?
 
I had a Green Mountain 5.56 Nato ,20" rifle length. I measured and lined up the gas block and checked it to make sure it was still in alignment. The RSO was there, he seemed to think the barrel already being hot from shooting the brass may have been the cause. My carbine cycled the Tula just fine
 
Edited as pointed out. To tired and early for me to be posting.

Simple form
I would just buy a new upper with the savings of steel vs brass. After 6k rounds of shooting steel you would save 700$ or more.
If the rifle is new did it receive a proper cleaning?
 
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I am going with a lube issue. A friend's build with a high quality bcg that was soaking jammed up on his first trip. Pulled out the bcg and totally cleaned it and relubed with frog lube. Same results. Pulled it out again and cleaned it up. We oiled it up with some light oil in just a few spots and ran steel the rest of the day.

I tend to run my guns dirtier and drier than most, and I haven't had problems with steel in my ARs. If I am planning on a class with hundreds of rounds in short time, I will shoot my brass, but steel for 3gun and at the car shoots, etc.


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They term "running wet " does not sit well with me.... after the design of the gas system on the AR pukes the gases all over the inside of you upper having a overly lubed system only allows more crud to stick in more places.
 
mac1911 said:
Hmm steel vs brass..... Ok so you got your ranger blaster AR 15 and want to go to the range but steel will ruin my barrel or gun or what have you.
now toss out the super ultra match guns this is just for the run of the mill AR 15 with say a sub 300$ barrel on it.
Last I checked there was about a 12 cent difference between brass and steel 223
420rnd federal 193 can was 40 cents each the next cheapest thing I did see was wolf WPA black box 223 for 28 cents each.
thats 120$ per 1k rounds saved buying steel. Shooting steel may wear out your barrel in 6k rounds or saving 720 bucks shooting steel. Screw the barrel replacement buy a new upper!
I find it odd the steel in OP is running faster over the crony and not functioning correctly? Also OP mentioned a double feed... maybe extractor is weak or wrong spring installed ?
I had a true range beater. Assembled with deep discount and servicable used parts. Fed a diet of steel and nothing more than a qick bore snake and bolt rub down after a range trip....I did not do a proper cleaning on this rifle for 3k plus rounds. only issues I had where magazines failing to feed....actually the mag lips where junk and the cartridge would flip up.
My 1st stag model 2 also got a steady diet of cheapest steel i could find. minor cleaning and never a problem other than some fail to fire.
Now yes problem ammo is a pita. and jams can be down right a bitch to clear....
I go back to my youth when I had a problem with any gun my father would chime in
"problems with your gun, did you clean it?" Dad its new....... New guns are far from clean.
If money is not much of a issue then brass maybe better for you. Although I would want any milspec nato chambered AR to bite,chew and spit out anything I cram in its mouth brass or steel...... I love steel ammo. I also see many old guys putting that gun ruining steel into their M1 garands and carbines.
Funny hornady makes steel cased ammo and I dont think they are making berdan primed steel cases? Is hornady steel good for your AR?

When I watch 3 gun on TV it seems theres a lot of guys blasting the steel cased ammo ?
Click to expand...

Holy shit, take your ADD meds, that post was nearly impossible to read
 
Try a new magazine, i have multiple ar15's. I shoot steel tula all the time, i had a few problems with 2 magazines. I bought new mags...and havnt had a single problem in the last 700 rounds ive fired.
 
I'll agree with others on it being a lube issue.
A friend was having a similar problem using frog lube.
Switched to clp and it stopped.
 
just a few points..... now i dont know what the companies use for test barrels or at what range the veleocity is taken? this is 55gn ammo
m193 mil spec is suposed to be 3250fps 15ft from the muzzle which they use a "test" barrel.
m193 mil spec ammo 3250fps
Federal XM193 is suposed to be loaded to mil spec 3250 fps
Wolf polyformance web site says 3241 and Wolf Mil-classic is rated the same 3241 the gold line is rated at 3250
Now the TULA is rated at 2952 so a tad on the light side for velocity. Might be a problem if your rifle has a heavy buffer or not lubed correctly.
now assume they all use a 20" test barrel throw into account the gas system and shorter barrels how much velocity is lost.
toss in the velocity loss for the gas system and shorter barrels.....you just might get short stroked?
As for jaming....OP had almost the reverse of most. He went from brass to steel and it jammed in the chamber. Most of the stories seem to be the opposite. I shot 100 rounds of steel and then the brass rounds jammed up after?

- - - Updated - - -

tysdad115 said:
My wife never likes anything "cheap"...I shouldn't expect her gun to be any different!
Click to expand...
looks like blackhills,nosler or lapua for you! or i mean your wife....
 
dnepro-mike said:
i have no problems with lacquered bear or poly wolf in any of my guns including ARs
i don't buy into lacquer myth either. or chromed chamber vs un-chromed. some of my guns have chromed chambers others do not still no issues with steel-case ammo.

If i remember correctly, when luckygunner did their test of russian ammo, failure rate was so marginally insignificant compare to more expensive brass cased ammo that it's was supposed to clear this brass vs steel argument once and for all. i had some doubts in that respect but they cleared for me and they were very convincing.

IMHO, all the problems that people fault steel ammo for are stemming from the fact that steel case is a lot less forgiving to chamber specs than brass case. if your chamber is near the upper end of the dimensional tolerances allowed than you will have lesser chamber pressure more gasses pushing through backwards due to less precise seal. problem is also can be due to chamber being rough from using reamer that is near the end of its useful tool-life. who knows. there are so many manufacturers of AR barrels and possibly just as many variations between them. some might be better than others, cheaper, more/less precise or closer/farther to 'goldilocks' parameters.

anyhow, what am i driving at is that it's *most likely* 99% of the time a gun issue and not an ammo issue. i've been lucky so far to get guns that eat steel w/o problems but who knows maybe my next gun will be less lucky.

i do not claim some expertise knowledge on steel ammo vs gun chamber interaction. i'm just merely voicing conclusions of my own thought process and throwing it in the pile of common knowledge. take it or hate it.
Click to expand...



This same here.
 
One of these four:

Inadequate lube
Buffer too heavy
Gas port too small
gas tube/block not aligned properly.


As to lube I only use Hoppe's Elite T3 on all my rifles. Wet. Like dripping-get-a-face-full-of-lube-on-the-first-shot wet. Works whether it's 100F or -10F outside. I didn't have a malfunction all winter.

ETA: Thought of a fifth. Make sure the buffer tube, spring and buffer are oiled and periodically check your buffer for damage.
 
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oilspill said:
Maybe OP will chime in with an update....
Click to expand...

Since posting I've shot a total of about 600 more rounds through the gun including 200 of steel. Just one short stroke in that 200 and no jamming. I think some of the issue was break-in related. I also probably have a buffer (H) that's a little heavier than needed for my gun. I don't have any problems with brass .223 and certainly not with 5.56, but my shells eject to my 4 / 430 which I remember reading might indicate that my buffer is a bit heavy. I understand shells should eject at 3 o'clock if you have the right weight. I'd rather be on the heavy side as my defense ammo if 5.56 and a little hotter.
 

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