Tavor shotgun

[Remote Camper]

I often see you guys talking about missing the opportunity to buy X rifle when it was in stock at your local shop. I see this too many times.
Have ANY of you guys ever think about just buying it on gunbroker and ship it to your local dealer and pay the transfer?
You can usually get it a couple hundred dollars cheaper if you went this way.


RC

 

[paul73]

Hi, as i just got myself x95 - now i think of going full tavor.
anybody who has this TS12 for a long enough time now - how does it work for you? Do you still like it, does it perform OK, or, if there were any issues - what were they?
I see them now on a gunbroker at $1500-$1699 level, which is quite a bit for a shotgun, hmm.
Any comments?

thx, Paul.

 

[CrackPot]

Hi, as i just got myself x95 - now i think of going full tavor.
anybody who has this TS12 for a long enough time now - how does it work for you? Do you still like it, does it perform OK, or, if there were any issues - what were they?
I see them now on a gunbroker at $1500-$1699 level, which is quite a bit for a shotgun, hmm.
Any comments?

thx, Paul.

If you are in MA, make sure you have an FFL lined up who will touch it. It requires some seriously magical thinking to decide that it is not both a high capacity weapon and an assault weapon. If you are not in MA, then carry on and good luck!

 

[paul73]

If you are in MA, make sure you have an FFL lined up who will touch it. It requires some seriously magical thinking to decide that it is not both a high capacity weapon and an assault weapon. If you are not in MA, then carry on and good luck!

i will check with FFL i use - i think TS12 is still allowed in MA, as it was before, but, i just wonder to find out what long term owners think of it first.
not all reviews of it are 100% positive.
like, this:

IWI TS12 Review: Space Shotgun with Some Flaws [Field Tested]

Looking at the ultra-futuristic IWI TS12 semi-auto shotgun? We hands-on test it and although it's massively fun, there's still some flaws you need to know.

www.pewpewtactical.com

...
Reliability was hit or miss. While the right buckshot load minimized failures, it never ran 100%.
With a 5% failure rate with buckshot, I’m torn between a 2.5 and a 3, but if a ZIP gun from USFA is a 1, then this is at least a 3.

i have a quite old used mossberg already, just thinking of, well, modernizing the content. if it makes any sense, which is probably - not much.
but if i sell 2 of 4 glocks i have now - it will even it up, $ wise.

 

[drgrant]

If you are in MA, make sure you have an FFL lined up who will touch it. It requires some seriously magical thinking to decide that it is not both a high capacity weapon and an assault weapon. If you are not in MA, then carry on and good luck!

If you have to manually index the magazine to load the next 5 rounds is it really large capacity? Of course it doesn't help matters that this is the only gun of its type.

Is it 3 x 5 round magazines mounted together or one 15 round magazine?

 

[Brewer]

If you have to manually index the magazine to load the next 5 rounds is it really large capacity? Of course it doesn't help matters that this is the only gun of its type.

Is it 3 x 5 round magazines mounted together or one 15 round magazine?

___ was comfortable with it. ___ not. ___ deferred to GOAL’s interpretation, whom I never asked.

 

[TTA89]

I thought about it for 5 seconds but the videos make it look awkward to use and the reviews are mixed. For a lot less money I'd rather have a magazine fed shotgun that can take a drum. This looks cool but I haven't really been serious about researching what people think. Explore Kalashnikov KS-12T Tactical Shotgun | Kalashnikov USA They come with 10 round mags and even 5 rounders for super commie states.

 

[drgrant]

@CrackPot is probably right but I am curious to hear his explanation. This is a tricky one, for sure, because it doesn't take typical magazines and even the literature says it "has 3 magazines" I am guessing that IWI did that retardation explicitly to avoid the sporting purposes clause stuff on import. (but thats an ATF thing, not an MA thing).

 

[paul73]

I thought about it for 5 seconds but the videos make it look awkward to use and the reviews are mixed. For a lot less money I'd rather have a magazine fed shotgun that can take a drum. This looks cool but I haven't really been serious about researching what people think. Explore Kalashnikov KS-12T Tactical Shotgun | Kalashnikov USA They come with 10 round mags and even 5 rounders for super commie states.

i am not really that much concerned about getting a new shotgun, if it is not going to match the rifle, to be honest.
but, speaking of the alternatives - a co-worker of mine really like this one:

GunBroker.com - Error

says it performs just fine. but i suspect this one looks like an assault one for MA purposes. i may ask my FFL about it too, will see.

 

[paul73]

I thought about it for 5 seconds but the videos make it look awkward to use and the reviews are mixed. For a lot less money I'd rather have a magazine fed shotgun that can take a drum. This looks cool but I haven't really been serious about researching what people think. Explore Kalashnikov KS-12T Tactical Shotgun | Kalashnikov USA They come with 10 round mags and even 5 rounders for super commie states.

so, that is a saiga-12, only real one is fully automatic. i have friends who have it, and from what i recall it had a tendency to rip shells apart and get stuck on them. it was long time ago, and i think i recall complaints of how people were getting issues using paper 12ga shells, etc.

 

[CrackPot]

@CrackPot is probably right but I am curious to hear his explanation. This is a tricky one, for sure, because it doesn't take typical magazines and even the literature says it "has 3 magazines" I am guessing that IWI did that retardation explicitly to avoid the sporting purposes clause stuff on import. (but thats an ATF thing, not an MA thing).

There are two avenues here to consider, both of which would be violations of MGL 140 131M

1. Does it have a Large Capacity Feeding Device (15 rds or 3x5 rds)
2. Is it an Assault Weapon

Most people seem to focus on question #1. I don't think this is a zero risk proposition to say it is 3x5. Yes, you have to take a manual step to index to a new 5. Yes it is like a device that attaches two AR mags together BUT I CAN STILL TAKE THOSE MAGS APART. The device that holds the rounds is a single formed piece of plastic that holds 15 rounds. Let us just focus on that. One piece of plastic, 15 rounds. The rest does not matter. You can't escape this. One piece of plastic. 15 rounds. Had they made the magazine as 3 separate 5 round tubes with something holding them together, I MIGHT seen a argument for it being 3 5 round mags. Maybe

Question #2. AWB for shotgun says semi auto with at least 2 of

• folding or telescoping stock
• pistol grip that protrudes conspicuosly beneath the action of the weapon
• a fixed magazine capacity in excess of 5 rounds
• an ability to accept a detachable magazine

This has fixed capacity in excess of 5 rounds, dewitt 15 rounds. It has a pistol grip. Again, you can make magical thinking arguments that it is not a pistol grip because it has something attached to it or that its a bullpup so the pistol is not below the action (then how does the trigger work?). You can try the "its 3 5 round mags" argument again. I think this is all fail. It is an assault weapon.

Anyone who knows me knows I will try and find ANY legal work around to sell/transfer want people what that is lawful for me and them. The Tavor 12 is a pair of felony charges waiting to happen (double violation of 140 131M).

 

[steve8140]

I got to shoot one this past weekend a friend has. It’s cool but not my cup of tea. Here is my review of the 10 minutes I played with it.

-It is very stock heavy when unloaded but balances out once you load the 15+1.
-Not only with this but on some other guns as well, I’m not a big fan of the magazine tube release INSIDE the trigger guard.
-It does shoot and pattern well. We set up 5 targets from 5-10 yards and all had good hits with 00 Buck.
-He had a Primary Arms red dot with the circle and it seemed to pair very well with the gun.
-There is a break on period like most semi-auto shotguns. It worked perfect with high brass military 00buckshot but had several issues with low brass 00buckshot. The low brass was a “high velocity” type and cycled about 20% using it. He is still in the break in period since he can’t find ammo.

 

[slugworth]

My buddy just showed up with one of these!! Nice OD Green.. bran new...And he is in MA.

 

[cjmass]

There seems to be quite a few being sold by MA dealers and possessed in MA, with mixed opinions on the legality. Has anyone secured an opinion from a lawyer, cops or attorney general?

 

[CrackPot]

There seems to be quite a few being sold by MA dealers and possessed in MA, with mixed opinions on the legality. Has anyone secured an opinion from a lawyer, cops or attorney general?

Opinions are like a**h***s…

The question to ask a lawyer is “how do you defend a client against charges of violating both parts of mgl 140 131m and what do you think your chances are?” The best lawyer for this is likely @nstassel . Asking cops or the AG is a waste of breath.

I don’t expect Neal to provide free advise but if you want to pony up a retainer and share the answer…

I will not sell or transfer them and will loudly tell my customers of my reasoning for why I think they are unlawful. Turning my customers into felons is bad for repeat business.

 

[cjmass]

Has GOAL taken a position on the legality of the TAVOR-12 shotgun in MA?

 

[nstassel]

Opinions are like a**h***s…

The question to ask a lawyer is “how do you defend a client against charges of violating both parts of mgl 140 131m and what do you think your chances are?” The best lawyer for this is likely @nstassel . Asking cops or the AG is a waste of breath.

I don’t expect Neal to provide free advise but if you want to pony up a retainer and share the answer…

I will not sell or transfer them and will loudly tell my customers of my reasoning for why I think they are unlawful. Turning my customers into felons is bad for repeat business.

I appreciate the desire by everyone interested in this issue to want a clear answer. The problem is there isn't one. On the one hand you have a FFL holder providing an admittedly self serving opinion that's it's legal by selling the gun. On the other hand, you have a perfectly reasoned interpretation of the plain language of the statute. Are multiple tubes one feeding device? It's really a question of fact that probably would need a jury or judge to decide. The Commonwealth might also have to prove that a possessor knew the item in question met the legal definition of a large capacity feeding device. The opinion of the ffl could help the possessor on that issue.

As it stands, you pay your money and take your chances. In these situations it simply boils down to a person's risk tolerance. I can tell you I spent a lot of time looking for ATF opinions on the subject from during the ban and I couldn't find anything out there on the internet because I would like to have a copy of the opinion for possible future reference. That might have been very helpful.

 

[Mesatchornug]

I appreciate the desire by everyone interested in this issue to want a clear answer. The problem is there isn't one. On the one hand you have a FFL holder providing an admittedly self serving opinion that's it's legal by selling the gun. On the other hand, you have a perfectly reasoned interpretation of the plain language of the statute. Are multiple tubes one feeding device? It's really a question of fact that probably would need a jury or judge to decide. The Commonwealth might also have to prove that a possessor knew the item in question met the legal definition of a large capacity feeding device. The opinion of the ffl could help the possessor on that issue.

As it stands, you pay your money and take your chances. In these situations it simply boils down to a person's risk tolerance. I can tell you I spent a lot of time looking for ATF opinions on the subject from during the ban and I couldn't find anything out there on the internet because I would like to have a copy of the opinion for possible future reference. That might have been very helpful.

even if one beats the LCFD charge, there's still the possibility for LC firearm/assault weapon (shotgun), owing to its advertised fixed, 15+1 capacity, no?

 

[nstassel]

even if one beats the LCFD charge, there's still the possibility for LC firearm/assault weapon (shotgun), owing to its advertised fixed, 15+1 capacity, no?

I'm looking at that as the same issue: is this one magazine or three?

 

[ColdDayInHell]

JFC. Buy one if you like it and enjoy.

It’s not like you’d be using it as a bedside gun.

 

[drgrant]

JFC. Buy one if you like it and enjoy.

It’s not like you’d be using it as a bedside gun.

Doesn't matter, posession is posession. If someone gets whacked with a 209A or ERPO and their shit gets taken, if the responding PD are c***s it can go badly. (EG, if you live in a town where they examine guns instead of the other 80% that just throw them in a pile) Pant shitters (eg, people who don't establish their own risk tolerance rationale and don'tunderstand the laws well) are the worst when dealing with something that might possibly even be illegal, too... they will literally be FAR more at risk than more experienced people, or even people who don't give a shit. In their mental/internal fear based climate they become hysteric/frenzied. After a point, there is such a thing as talking too much and asking too many questions, lol....


View: https://youtu.be/3EfMMNTD1x4

 

[rcwhat]

There are two avenues here to consider, both of which would be violations of MGL 140 131M

1. Does it have a Large Capacity Feeding Device (15 rds or 3x5 rds)
2. Is it an Assault Weapon

Most people seem to focus on question #1. I don't think this is a zero risk proposition to say it is 3x5. Yes, you have to take a manual step to index to a new 5. Yes it is like a device that attaches two AR mags together BUT I CAN STILL TAKE THOSE MAGS APART. The device that holds the rounds is a single formed piece of plastic that holds 15 rounds. Let us just focus on that. One piece of plastic, 15 rounds. The rest does not matter. You can't escape this. One piece of plastic. 15 rounds. Had they made the magazine as 3 separate 5 round tubes with something holding them together, I MIGHT seen a argument for it being 3 5 round mags. Maybe

Question #2. AWB for shotgun says semi auto with at least 2 of

• folding or telescoping stock
• pistol grip that protrudes conspicuosly beneath the action of the weapon
• a fixed magazine capacity in excess of 5 rounds
• an ability to accept a detachable magazine

This has fixed capacity in excess of 5 rounds, dewitt 15 rounds. It has a pistol grip. Again, you can make magical thinking arguments that it is not a pistol grip because it has something attached to it or that its a bullpup so the pistol is not below the action (then how does the trigger work?). You can try the "its 3 5 round mags" argument again. I think this is all fail. It is an assault weapon.

Anyone who knows me knows I will try and find ANY legal work around to sell/transfer want people what that is lawful for me and them. The Tavor 12 is a pair of felony charges waiting to happen (double violation of 140 131M).

I mean you could always reference the manufacturer, which surely got ATF approval to import the shotgun.

“The Tavor TS12 12 gauge shotgun is a gas regulated bullpup shotgun with an innovative design that feeds from one of three (3) individual magazines which can hold four 3 inch shotgun shells or five 2 ¾ inch shotgun shells each. This means that the potential overall capacity from all three (3) individual magazines is 15 rounds plus one additional round in the chamber. The TS12 has a unique feature that automatically loads a round in the chamber once the subsequent loaded magazine is rotated into position. It can be fed and unloaded from either side.”

Oh wow, look at that. That was easy. They clearly state that it’s 3 individual magazines.

Tavor TS12 Handguard Barrel Nut - IWI US

A spare Tavor TS12 Handguard Barrel Nut. Please follow the instructions in the manual in section 9 Strip Field - Disassembly / Assembly Instructions. You can find the manual here.

iwi.us

 

[wmassregulators]

I'll race you to the 17th round with my stoeger

 

[v37v]

It's cool af, completely unusable for anything besides range fun and fondling until mad max age, goin to jail if it's shown as evidence in a shooting.

 

[drgrant]

I mean you could always reference the manufacturer, which surely got ATF approval to import the shotgun.

Lol is there an approval letter?

Also theres tons of shotguns imported which are illegal by the letter of old fed AWB (and by proxy, mass) but not illegal by the sporting purposes clause BS which is an importation thing that is somewhat nebulous. It's the reason why those guns only ship with 5rd mags. And probably why the TS12 doesn't have an auto advancing magazine. (honestly it wouldn't have been that complicated for them to do that but the reason they didn't do it is obvious they wanted to be able to import it... )

 

[CrackPot]

I mean you could always reference the manufacturer, which surely got ATF approval to import the shotgun.

“The Tavor TS12 12 gauge shotgun is a gas regulated bullpup shotgun with an innovative design that feeds from one of three (3) individual magazines which can hold four 3 inch shotgun shells or five 2 ¾ inch shotgun shells each. This means that the potential overall capacity from all three (3) individual magazines is 15 rounds plus one additional round in the chamber. The TS12 has a unique feature that automatically loads a round in the chamber once the subsequent loaded magazine is rotated into position. It can be fed and unloaded from either side.”

Oh wow, look at that. That was easy. They clearly state that it’s 3 individual magazines.

Tavor TS12 Handguard Barrel Nut - IWI US

A spare Tavor TS12 Handguard Barrel Nut. Please follow the instructions in the manual in section 9 Strip Field - Disassembly / Assembly Instructions. You can find the manual here.

iwi.us

Nice marketing fluff and totally irrelevant for making an AWB and/or large capacity determination. I applaud the effort though. The AWB does not care if it is multiple magazines. It cares if it has detachable (it does not) or a fixed magazine capacity in excess of 5 (it does).

 

[rcwhat]

Lol is there an approval letter?

Also theres tons of shotguns imported which are illegal by the letter of old fed AWB (and by proxy, mass) but not illegal by the sporting purposes clause BS which is an importation thing that is somewhat nebulous. It's the reason why those guns only ship with 5rd mags. And probably why the TS12 doesn't have an auto advancing magazine. (honestly it wouldn't have been that complicated for them to do that but the reason they didn't do it is obvious they wanted to be able to import it... )

I would think that there was some sort of approval process, especially with a company like IWI.
Obviously there’s tons of shotguns and rifles that are imported that wouldn’t pass MA muster. Bren, Scar, ak’s…etc. The only point I was making in my first post was about the three individual magazines.

 

[rcwhat]

Nice marketing fluff and totally irrelevant for making an AWB and/or large capacity determination. I applaud the effort though. The AWB does not care if it is multiple magazines. It cares if it has detachable (it does not) or a fixed magazine capacity in excess of 5 (it does).

It doesn’t have a fixed mag greater than 5. It has exactly a 5rd mag and also has the ability to hold two additional magazines. Only one magazine can be fired at a time without any manual of arms other than the trigger.

 

[CrackPot]

It doesn’t have a fixed mag greater than 5. It has exactly a 5rd mag and also has the ability to hold two additional magazines. Only one magazine can be fired at a time without any manual of arms other than the trigger.

reread the statue. It talks about the capacity of the weapon as a whole w/o consideration for the mechanism. No where does it discuss manual steps or similar. It has a single piece of plastic that holds 15 rounds formed into 3 tubes. We can argue until the cows come home and you are free to take any risks you want.

 

[Ron Jablonski]

Doesn't matter, posession is posession. If someone gets whacked with a 209A or ERPO and their shit gets taken, if the responding PD are c***s it can go badly. (EG, if you live in a town where they examine guns instead of the other 80% that just throw them in a pile) Pant shitters (eg, people who don't establish their own risk tolerance rationale and don'tunderstand the laws well) are the worst when dealing with something that might possibly even be illegal, too... they will literally be FAR more at risk than more experienced people, or even people who don't give a shit. In their mental/internal fear based climate they become hysteric/frenzied. After a point, there is such a thing as talking too much and asking too many questions, lol....


View: https://youtu.be/3EfMMNTD1x4

I would have never guessed you knew who MF DOOM was, I tip my hat sir.