The new army sniper rifle!

Absolutely. The AR is the most ergonomically perfect rifle ever fielded by the US. With a .308 ass-boost, it should easily perform well.

It is easily a sub-MOA platform (not even close to necessary for sniper work) without a huge degree of 'tricking out'
 
Ever since I got to handle a Panther arms .308 AR15-style rifle, I have been thinking of getting one. Just cannot really justify adding another caliber at this point...
 
matt1956 said:
what is this strange word "justify" that you use? I'm not sure I am familiar with it's meaning.
Click to expand...

It's a method of avoiding the yelling that always follows bringing home an unannounced purchase. *cough* Not that I have any experience with such yelling mind you.
 
hminsky said:
Ever since I got to handle a Panther arms .308 AR15-style rifle, I have been thinking of getting one. Just cannot really justify adding another caliber at this point...
Click to expand...

While the .308 M4 style they make looks killer, I'm very interested in getting a hold of the new "Tac20" (.308 with a 20" barrel). Although as a non-reloader, the price of .308 is a bit itimidating these days, espically where I hear the DPMS rifles are pretty tight and don't like surplus ammo :(
 
Mass-diver said:
While the .308 M4 style they make looks killer, I'm very interested in getting a hold of the new "Tac20" (.308 with a 20" barrel). Although as a non-reloader, the price of .308 is a bit itimidating these days, espically where I hear the DPMS rifles are pretty tight and don't like surplus ammo :(
Click to expand...

Yes I handled one with a 20" barrel, and it was really light and well balanced, seemed better balance than my 20" Bushmaster HBAR actually. I almost got one for $990 at a show last year. sigh.
 
I can tell you that the DPMS LR308 is one of THE most accurate rifles I own. You would need a dedicated bench gun to get better groups than that thing is capable of.
 
PatMcD said:
I can tell you that the DPMS LR308 is one of THE most accurate rifles I own. You would need a dedicated bench gun to get better groups than that thing is capable of.
Click to expand...

What is the Recoil like in the AR platform with the .308?
 
The Army has had an infatuation with semi auto sniper rifles going back to Korea. They finally got it right with the M24 but apparently the semi-auto freaks would not give up.

At the distances a sniper normally fires, the self loading of the semi auto is unnecessary. You have to wait for the rifle to settle from recoil to make any kind of precision follow up shots. And any skilled bolt gun shooter knows that the time to cycle the bolt is during recoil while the sight picture is disturbed anyway.

As an example of the uselessness of a semi auto's "speed" in precision fire, the national record for the highpower 200 yard rapid fire stage is held by Dennis DeMille, CWO4 USMC (ret) with a smoking 300-28X. Dennis was shooting a TUBB 2000 bolt action rifle.

It is interesting that the Marine Corps continues with bolt action rifles of their own manufacture and based on the Remington Model 700 receiver.

The missions of snipers and designated marksmen are different so should their rifles be.
 
derek said:
What is the Recoil like in the AR platform with the .308?
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Derek, I would say the felt recoil is definitely less than the M14, maybe 2/3. Straight-line recoil as opposed to the M14, I guess.
My heavy match M14 in the McMillan stock always felt like it had more recoil that a standard wooden stocked one. That fiberglass must be stiffer and not soak up any kick.
 
Jose said:
The Army has had an infatuation with semi auto sniper rifles going back to Korea. They finally got it right with the M24 but apparently the semi-auto freaks would not give up.

At the distances a sniper normally fires, the self loading of the semi auto is unnecessary. You have to wait for the rifle to settle from recoil to make any kind of precision follow up shots. And any skilled bolt gun shooter knows that the time to cycle the bolt is during recoil while the sight picture is disturbed anyway.

As an example of the uselessness of a semi auto's "speed" in precision fire, the national record for the highpower 200 yard rapid fire stage is held by Dennis DeMille, CWO4 USMC (ret) with a smoking 300-28X. Dennis was shooting a TUBB 2000 bolt action rifle.

It is interesting that the Marine Corps continues with bolt action rifles of their own manufacture and based on the Remington Model 700 receiver.

The missions of snipers and designated marksmen are different so should their rifles be.
Click to expand...

Jose:

What is your personal experience that qualifies you to make these statements?

Is it your opinion that there is no one in the Army, making these decisions, that is privy to the information you have presented in the few sentences above?
 
The bolt gun is more accurate, but I think they will be better equipped with a semi. Most long range sniping involves a healthy dose of luck, so I'm not sure that a semi-auto will hold the guys back too much. Maybe a little at the extreme ranges, but how often are they really connecting at those ranges shooting a 12 pound .308? I know it happens, but I'd like to see how often they miss as well. I bet they miss more than hit at those ranges. [thinking]

With LRFs the range is pretty easy to determine with certainty, but out at 1000 yards a 1 mph error in wind estimation will blow you a little more than 10 inches and no one can really judge wind down to those speeds in a tactical environment. The wind will never blow at a constant speed and direction for the 1000 yards the bullet has to travel. However it's a lot different on a range without obstructions or in open terrain.

I'd be more concerned about having my hide compromised and having enough firepower to shoot my way out of a situation. I also think they will have a better opportunity to re engage their target or fire on more targets if the need/opportunity arises.

B
 
PatMcD said:
My heavy match M14 in the McMillan stock always felt like it had more recoil that a standard wooden stocked one. That fiberglass must be stiffer and not soak up any kick.
Click to expand...

I always hated shooting the fiberglass ones as they always seemed to recoil harder than the wood guns.

B
 
ranger4-7 said:
Jose:

What is your personal experience that qualifies you to make these statements?

Is it your opinion that there is no one in the Army, making these decisions, that is privy to the information you have presented in the few sentences above?
Click to expand...

I am a Master in NRA Highpower and in NRA Mid Range Prone. I have a fair bit of experience and knowledge on how to deliver accurate rapid aimed fire at distances to 300 yards and precision aimed fire at distances to 600.

I stand by my statement, based on over five years of serious competitive shooting year after year, that a semi-auto rifle confers no advantage to someone attempting multiple precision shots at distances between 300 and 600 yards. If it did, shooters using AR15s would own the majority of records in NRA Highpower, and the truth of the matter is that they own very few of them and none of the overall records in any event of the course of fire.

I am not, however, a sniper so I will not comment on tactical issues.

One would also have to ask himself why the Marine Corps, which places a significantly higher emphasis on marksmanship than the Army, has not followed suit.

I have never belong to the Army or Marines, so I have no axe to grind either way.
 
bpm990d said:
I always hated shooting the fiberglass ones as they always seemed to recoil harder than the wood guns.

B
Click to expand...

I never fired the wood stocked ones, only the fiberglass ones. I still remember my first shot at the 200 RF splitting my lip. [smile]
 
derek said:
I never fired the wood stocked ones, only the fiberglass ones. I still remember my first shot at the 200 RF splitting my lip. [smile]
Click to expand...

I seem to remember getting banged pretty good at least once a match. At the end of a 100 shot match I always felt beat up. I like the ARs a lot better. Too bad they were coming into their own as I was getting out of the SR game.

B
 
Pat, I think the learning curve would have been a little more gentle and not rife with potholes. :p

Overall I think they are just better rifles and a lot easier and more enjoyable to shoot.

If we get a Long Range clinic next year are you going to go to NY with us to shoot 1000 yards with the DPMS .308?

B
 
pdm said:
It's a method of avoiding the yelling that always follows bringing home an unannounced purchase. *cough* Not that I have any experience with such yelling mind you.
Click to expand...

lol, yeah... i have one of those...

and i am always trying to "justify" something new. Now i get ya [wink]
 

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