This Gun Is Making a Comeback: Walther PPK Is One Again in Production

[Coyote33]

another link for you:
Tested: North American Arms .32 NAA Guardian

"As noted earlier, you can acquire a Guardian chambered for the thoroughly capable (and commonly available) .32 ACP or .380 ACP rounds, but NAA has two other very unique options as well—the .25 NAA and the .32 NAA, and it is the latter of these we will be considering today. Both of these rounds, developed in concert with CorBon ammunition, feature “bottleneck” case designs. The .25 NAA is based off of the .32 ACP cartridge, is necked down to a .25-cal. projectile and is offered in the smaller-framed Guardian. The .32 NAA, offered in the larger .380 ACP-sized pistol, follows the same principle, but offers bigger punch and is based off of the .380 ACP case. Necked down to a .32-cal. projectile, the pint-sized powerhouse was designed to propel a 60-gr. projectile at 1,200 fps at the muzzle from the short 2.5” barrel of the Guardian, delivering 199 ft.-lbs. of energy.

To put that in perspective, a comparable .32 ACP defensive round would push a 60-gr. projectile at around 1,000 fps and have about 130 ft.-lbs. of energy at the muzzle. A comparable .380 ACP defensive round would push a 90-gr. projectile at 1,000 fps and produce about 200 ft.-lbs. of energy at the muzzle."

The .32 NAA round (left) is a bottlenecked cartridge based off of the .380 ACP (right) and necked down to a .32-cal. projectile.

Trying to wrap my head around the multiple posts that are saying a .380 pistol that weighs more than a G26 is "Snappy". ...

Blowback guns do have a bit more "snap" than other designs. Even a 9mm carbine in blowback has a bit of a concussion effect you don't get with the .223/5.56. If you haven't tried it, it is hard to describe.

 

[fencer]

Third, the vast majority of shooting deaths occurs with mousegun calibers like .25ACP, .32ACP, and .380ACP. Criminals who actually kill people don't carry 1911s or HK 45s. Source: pretty much any police report involving a shooting.

That is a common myth and misconception. It has been made popular by mob movies and a 1989 DOJ study where the author wrote.. "Probably more people have been killed by .22 caliber..." and it is pure bullshit.
Before 1990 the most common pistol caliber sold, owned and used was by far 38 special. It accounted for almost half of all pistol shootings and deaths. After 1990 and the market acceptance of semi autos, 9mm took the lead and has held it ever since. When you think about it, it makes sense when you consider that 9mm is produced in staggering quantities, far greater than any other caliber.
A little search on the google machine showed that in 2017 9mm was used ten times more often in California and it is far more likely to cause death. (obviously)
And historically, since WWII, 9mm has been used by so many military's that it would be hard to argue against it. Hell, I bet the Germans killed more people with 9mm just in WWII than have been killed in all of history with small calibers. And with all it's years in service the good ole 45 acp is probably a close second.

 

[MuzzleDiscipline]

Trying to wrap my head around the multiple posts that are saying a .380 pistol that weighs more than a G26 is "Snappy". Its like shooting a water pistol.

The PPK was a GREAT handgun.. in 1935.

The PPK by virtue of its narrow size and sharp edges as well as the S&W version with an extended rear thumb guard just isn't as pleasant to shoot. It likely doesn't matter much in an actual fight but if one wishes to spend lots of rounds at the range for proficiency it is painful after about 50 rounds.

 

[Deleted member 67409]

That is a common myth and misconception. It has been made popular by mob movies and a 1989 DOJ study where the author wrote.. "Probably more people have been killed by .22 caliber..." and it is pure bullshit.
Before 1990 the most common pistol caliber sold, owned and used was by far 38 special. It accounted for almost half of all pistol shootings and deaths. After 1990 and the market acceptance of semi autos, 9mm took the lead and has held it ever since. When you think about it, it makes sense when you consider that 9mm is produced in staggering quantities, far greater than any other caliber.
A little search on the google machine showed that in 2017 9mm was used ten times more often in California and it is far more likely to cause death. (obviously)
And historically, since WWII, 9mm has been used by so many military's that it would be hard to argue against it. Hell, I bet the Germans killed more people with 9mm just in WWII than have been killed in all of history with small calibers. And with all it's years in service the good ole 45 acp is probably a close second.

Cite source. Most common crime-shooting-death caliber from 1994 (AWB start) to present, please. The military has logistics to worry about and international laws. Criminals have the choice of whatever they can get.

 

[drgrant]

While I was walking around the house today after work I was thinking about this the thread and then I figured out how to summarize the PPK into one word...

"constipated".

 

[Deleted member 67409]

While I was walking around the house today after work I was thinking about this the thread and then I figured out how to summarize the PPK into one word...

"constipated".

You're thinking about it though. That's all that counts

 

[whatluck]

I love the way they point, but they chew up my hands.

The PPS is a better gun in every way IMO.

 

[fencer]

Cite source. Most common crime-shooting-death caliber from 1994 (AWB start) to present, please. The military has logistics to worry about and international laws. Criminals have the choice of whatever they can get.

https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/GUIC.PDF
Graphic: The Most Popular Crime Guns in Chicago, Ranked
These Are the Guns Criminals in America Love
Association of Firearm Caliber With Death From Gunshot in Criminal Assaults
Gun commonly used in crimes among the least expensive on the market
Guns, Guns, & More Gosh Darn Guns: But the .22 Has Killed.....
The Make, Model and Caliber of Firearms Seized in Chicago
List of most-produced firearms - Wikipedia
Glock: The World's Most Popular Handgun?
https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-s...rt-description-of-the-gun-or-a-link-with-that
One way to reduce gun deaths: restrict big bullets and guns

Or, you could check out this one. Since 2004 but I am done looking...
Table 35.

 

[42!]

I think I read that Sig fairly recently just stopped making (or selling?) their 232, which is basically a PPK clone. I wonder if they started selling these again to fill in the gap that was left.

I have a PP and a P232, similar lines but definitely not a clone.

All this talk has me wanting to know when my PP was manufactured. It's marked as being made in Ulm/Do. with the Interarms import stamp. I see a lot of info about date codes a serial numbers with a P sufix, but nothing matches up. Can anyone help a guy out? Serial is 744xxA on the frame and just 744xx on the slide.

 

[Deleted member 67409]

https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/GUIC.PDF
Graphic: The Most Popular Crime Guns in Chicago, Ranked
These Are the Guns Criminals in America Love
Association of Firearm Caliber With Death From Gunshot in Criminal Assaults
Gun commonly used in crimes among the least expensive on the market
Guns, Guns, & More Gosh Darn Guns: But the .22 Has Killed.....
The Make, Model and Caliber of Firearms Seized in Chicago
List of most-produced firearms - Wikipedia
Glock: The World's Most Popular Handgun?
https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-s...rt-description-of-the-gun-or-a-link-with-that
One way to reduce gun deaths: restrict big bullets and guns

Or, you could check out this one. Since 2004 but I am done looking...
Table 35.

Some of those articles do not apply to what I asked, such as the third one, the Wiki article, the Glock article, and the second to last one. The cop one is interesting, but again, inapplicable to what I asked. Killing a cop is a very specific type of crime and doesn't distinguish between self-defense against the cop (are we talking about charged felonies or felony convictions?), manslaughter, ND, felony murder, 2nd degree murder, and 1st degree murder.

The thread of commonality is cheap guns. The Hi Points, the Ravens, the snubbies. Pocket semi-autos in popular calibers (.25/.32/.380/9x19/.45) are cheap. And this thread is about the PPK, not revolvers, so the data on the revolvers is good to know but not applicable against the PPK. Especially since .38 Special has about +/- 80 ft. lbs. more of energy when comparing the same bullet weights (say 100gr .380 versus 100 gr. .38 Special), which is not something really worth quibbling about. I can't think of an instance where someone would be in a situation where they need that whopping extra 80 ft. lbs. of energy.

Thanks for the links, but the point is that .380 and other smaller-bore calibers can penetrate enough to kill. Besides, how many criminals wear North Korean layers of clothes when committing crimes that warrant lethal self-defense or wear armor? If they are wearing armor beyond Level II, then the vast majority of pistol cartridges will be inadequate.

 

[DJBrad]

I just noticed that I had a set of grips for the PPK if anyone is interested in buying.The white set is NOS factory grips,and the other set came of I think was a late 60.s import PPK.I will let the white go for$50,and the other for $25.View attachment 269327 View attachment 269328

I assure you that’s yellow, not white

 

[PATRON]

No they,are white it's the light.

 

[DJBrad]

No they,are white it's the light.

Lol

 

[M60]

I just noticed that I had a set of grips for the PPK if anyone is interested in buying.The white set is NOS factory grips,and the other set came of I think was a late 60.s import PPK.I will let the white go for$50,and the other for $25.View attachment 269327 View attachment 269328

Well this just plain sucks. This thread is not here for you to sell your grips on.

 

[PATRON]

Sorry I will take it off didn't know it was that time of the month for you.

 

[citoriguy]

Well, maybe I missed it, but when are these new versions expected to roll out?

 

[ADC]

Bond .... James Bond

 

[fencer]

The cop one is interesting, but again, inapplicable to what I asked. Killing a cop is a very specific type of crime

So you are suggesting that criminals have different caliber firearms when they know they might face cops? The data you are looking for " Pistol calibers used in shooting deaths since 94" does not exist. Therefore one must look at all available information and draw their own conclusions. You source was " pretty much any police report involving a shooting"

Besides, how many criminals wear North Korean layers of clothes when committing crimes

From November to April, in Chicago,Detroit, Boston and New York? Most of them. Yesterday I left for work wearing a T shirt, thermal, flannel,hoodie and a Carhart jacket.

Thanks for the links, but the point is that .380 and other smaller-bore calibers can penetrate enough to kill.

I think your point was actually that " The vast majority of shooting deaths occur with mouse gun calibers" like 25acp, 32 acp and 380acp. That is simply not true and never has been. It is a myth that has been perpetuated for years by gun shop gossip. 9mm has topped the list for many years and before that is was 38 special, and the beloved 40cal has been #2 for more than 20 years.
I agree that 380 can kill. But why carry it? There is no doubt that modern 9mm is much more effective, much less expensive and is offered in a ton of platforms for concealment, low recoil and capacity.
The PPK is a neat little gun and people buy them because they like them.

 

[seanc]

Trying to wrap my head around the multiple posts that are saying a .380 pistol that weighs more than a G26 is "Snappy". Its like shooting a water pistol.

The PPK was a GREAT handgun.. in 1935.

I actually agree with many that a ppk is not as soft a shooter and tends to have more felt recoil and muzzle flip than many 380s or even 9mm, like a g26 you mentioned. It’s all about the geometry. And in the case of a g26 types I would say the concentric recoil spring.

Not even going to address the multiple mentions of slide bite.

 

[Deleted member 67409]

So you are suggesting that criminals have different caliber firearms when they know they might face cops? The data you are looking for " Pistol calibers used in shooting deaths since 94" does not exist. Therefore one must look at all available information and draw their own conclusions. You source was " pretty much any police report involving a shooting"

I agree that 380 can kill. But why carry it? There is no doubt that modern 9mm is much more effective, much less expensive and is offered in a ton of platforms for concealment, low recoil and capacity.
The PPK is a neat little gun and people buy them because they like them.

First, let's define a criminal. A criminal is someone who is convicted of a crime. In the study you provided, the crime was assault or killing (murder in the flavors of manslaughter, felony murder, 2nd degree, and 1st degree). Using traditional common law notions of "assault", where physical contact with the offended party is not required, a police officer can be assaulted with a .22 derringer. Shooting isn't even necessary, just a display of the gun.

Second, yes, if you're going to plan out the murder of a cop, you're probably going to make a conscious weapon choice, a la mass shooters. Or, if you're going to plan out something that may involve shooting a cop. Adam Lanza, Chris Dorner, James Hodgkinson, and the like are not the same as the convenience store robber who shoots and kills a cop in a felony murder. The premeditated murderer, by definition, made a plan to kill. The felony murderer happened to kill someone in the commission of a crime. So yes, the type of murder does matter. Put it this way: if a concealed carry permit holder consciously shoots someone at 25 yards with a well-aimed shot, it's probably going to be premeditated murder (at least that'll be the charge). Shooting someone in self-defense at three feet is not premeditated barring some other circumstance.

And I said the same thing about the PPK on the first page. The PPK is a niche gun that's got plenty of history behind it. They're not the best carry guns in the 21st Century but own it if you want it.

 

[LLF]

All this talk has me wanting to know when my PP was manufactured. It's marked as being made in Ulm/Do. with the Interarms import stamp. I see a lot of info about date codes a serial numbers with a P sufix, but nothing matches up. Can anyone help a guy out? Serial is 744xxA on the frame and just 744xx on the slide.

According to Walther Pistols Models 1 Through P99 by Dieter Marschall Walther PPs in .380 ACP with the serial number range 12003 - 78148A were manufactured between May 1954 and November 1985. I would guess from that range your PP was made in the early 1980s. According to the book these PPs were actually assembled by Manurhin in France from parts supplied by Walther.

 

[AHM]

The military has logistics to worry about and international laws. Criminals have the choice of whatever they can get.

Inner city thugs have two problems I don't envy them for:

1. Getting ammo for anything but the most common calibers.
2. Finding a place to practice.

I suspect that most hoods never get ammo beyond
what came with the gun they bought on the street corner,
and that many never even empty one full magazine.
(But that means their need for extra ammo is nonexistent).

I bet perfectly serviceable guns have been discarded because
of hoods gobsmacked by the slide locking back at the end of a mag.

You know it's true.

 

[M60]

Sorry I will take it off didn't know it was that time of the month for you.

Practice engaging your brain before your keyboard. The rest of us have to live by the rules here, but I guess you're special in the windmills of your own mind, so that makes it ok for you.

 

[PATRON]

WOW! bad period try some chocolates.

 

[fencer]

WOW! bad period try some chocolates.

You already did the period thing. Try a menopause reference.

Personally, when I am wrong, which happens from time to time, I own it without insulting the guy who pointed it out. " Yeah man, you are right".

 

[M60]

WOW! bad period try some chocolates.[/QUOTE

Nah. just not ready to roll over for a self indulgent smart ass.

 

[fencer]

First, let's define a criminal. A criminal is someone who is convicted of a crime. In the study you provided, the crime was assault or killing (murder in the flavors of manslaughter, felony murder, 2nd degree, and 1st degree). Using traditional common law notions of "assault", where physical contact with the offended party is not required, a police officer can be assaulted with a .22 derringer. Shooting isn't even necessary, just a display of the gun.

Second, yes, if you're going to plan out the murder of a cop, you're probably going to make a conscious weapon choice, a la mass shooters. Or, if you're going to plan out something that may involve shooting a cop. Adam Lanza, Chris Dorner, James Hodgkinson, and the like are not the same as the convenience store robber who shoots and kills a cop in a felony murder. The premeditated murderer, by definition, made a plan to kill. The felony murderer happened to kill someone in the commission of a crime. So yes, the type of murder does matter. Put it this way: if a concealed carry permit holder consciously shoots someone at 25 yards with a well-aimed shot, it's probably going to be premeditated murder (at least that'll be the charge). Shooting someone in self-defense at three feet is not premeditated barring some other circumstance.

And I said the same thing about the PPK on the first page. The PPK is a niche gun that's got plenty of history behind it. They're not the best carry guns in the 21st Century but own it if you want it.

Gimme a break buddy. " The vast majority of shooting deaths occur with mouse gun calibers". That is what you claim. Where is the source for that? Not only is there not a source for it, it defies common sense. There are more 9mm guns and ammo produced than all other centerfire calibers combined, but some how those rare guns and ammo account for " the vast majority of shooting deaths" OK.

If I could find even a shred of evidence to support this, I would have said so. I would have started with - " I stand corrected, according to xyz, you are right"

 

[Nick Fury]

Personally, when I am wrong, which happens from time to time, I own it without insulting the guy who pointed it out. " Yeah man, you are right".

If I could find even a shred of evidence to support this, I would have said so. I would have started with - " I stand corrected, according to xyz, you are right"

I gotta LOL at this sorry. I really don’t the time to dig up the proof dispute your claim here but thanks for the giggle just same...

 

[M60]

I gotta LOL at this sorry. I really don’t the time to dig up the proof dispute your claim here but thanks for the giggle just same...
View attachment 269415

Wow. After that post, you really should make the time. Don't leave yourself open to be the one out of every three snakes, unless, of course, the shoe fits.

 

[Dennis in MA]

Inner city thugs have two problems I don't envy them for:

1. Getting ammo for anything but the most common calibers.
2. Finding a place to practice.

I suspect that most hoods never get ammo beyond
what came with the gun they bought on the street corner,
and that many never even empty one full magazine.
(But that means their need for extra ammo is nonexistent).

I bet perfectly serviceable guns have been discarded because
of hoods gobsmacked by the slide locking back at the end of a mag.

You know it's true.

Practice??? LOL. Anyone with 8 seconds of practice knows the Gangsta-style sideways hold is useless. Ergo, they NEVER practice.