Trigger weight for IDPA/USPSA

[danashan]

Hi all,

I'd like to get some opinions on what trigger weight for USPSA Production/IDPA is in your opinion acceptable. I'll be using S&W M&P9fs and will get a trigger job for it. I beleive I can get the trigger anywhere from 2lb to 5lb, assuming that reset/overtravel etc are equal. I want to be comfortable competing, but I do NOT want the gun to become a sporting appliance and get me used to a hair trigger, so, if needed, I could shoot any other gun (with a trigger in sane state, meaning with non-MA pull tonnage ).
I think that I'd be fine with 5lb trigger.
What would your experience suggest? I'm not looking to become a champion, but rather compete/train as a way to become proficient with the weapon and have fun.

 

[TheRoland]

If you want to keep the gun as a 'working' gun, I wouldn't go below 4 or 5 pounds. For a competition only gun, go nuts.

It's really personal preference. My competition gun is 4 pounds, but I'd rather it was 3. My "non-competition guns" are all over, from 3.5 pounds (with manual safety) to 10 pounds (double action).

 

[Supermoto]

trigger break is more important than weight. I rather have a 4lbs crisp break than a 2lb mushy trigger. M&Ps will start to get sloppy under 3 lbs

 

[Mike-Mike]

trigger break is more important than weight. I rather have a 4lbs crisp break than a 2lb mushy trigger. M&Ps will start to get sloppy under 3 lbs

+1 on this. I use a stock trigger.

 

[Chuck Z]

trigger break is more important than weight. I rather have a 4lbs crisp break than a 2lb mushy trigger. M&Ps will start to get sloppy under 3 lbs

Take Mike's advice. We've got two Burwell triggers, and it's easier to make hits with the 3.5lb standard trigger than with the 2.25lb competition trigger.

 

[Amazon]

agree with what's been said. Consistancy, crispness, no over travel, etc. is what really makes the difference.

 

[danashan]

May be I should mention that the gun will get a trigger job by Greg Derr, if my plan works out. Since he offers different trigger pulls, I decided to ask NES's opinion on that. I'm assuming crispness, better reset etc. will be there. I hope

 

[eisenhow]

May be I should mention that the gun will get a trigger job by Greg Derr, if my plan works out. Since he offers different trigger pulls, I decided to ask NES's opinion on that. I'm assuming crispness, better reset etc. will be there. I hope

I would suggest that you take a look at the APEX drop it parts. I have a full size M&P that LaRocca did, a compact that Derr did and have tried a few M&P's with APEX parts in them. All three are MUCH better than the MA stock trigger but if I had to rate the triggers it would be APEX, LaRocca, Derr.

 

[jar]

I would suggest that you take a look at the APEX drop it parts. I have a full size M&P that LaRocca did, a compact that Derr did and have tried a few M&P's with APEX parts in them. All three are MUCH better than the MA stock trigger but if I had to rate the triggers it would be APEX, LaRocca, Derr.

Interesting. I forget, have you tried the factory trigger on my Pro? Where does that fit in?

 

[eisenhow]

Interesting. I forget, have you tried the factory trigger on my Pro? Where does that fit in?

I shot it early on, shortly after you got it. It was still a little gritty. I assume it has smoothed out with all the use it's gotten. IIRC weedwacker has APEX parts in his PRO.

 

[TheRoland]

I shot it early on, shortly after you got it. It was still a little gritty. I assume it has smoothed out with all the use it's gotten. IIRC weedwacker has APEX parts in his PRO.

My Pro trigger has a really nice break (similar to the couple of gunsmith triggers I've tried), but hasn't smoothed out much after several thousand rounds (and many more dry fires).

 

[jar]

I shot it early on, shortly after you got it. It was still a little gritty. I assume it has smoothed out with all the use it's gotten. IIRC weedwacker has APEX parts in his PRO.

I believe that gritty feel was due to the firing pin stop plunger. I only felt it in slow fire, so to be honest I couldn't tell you if it's smoothed out or not. It'd be nice to side by side pro, apex, larocca, derr, and burwell at some point.

 

[DUSTYDOG]

I had Greg Derr do both my M&P's one compac and the other fullsize both in 40 . I have used the compac from day one in IDPA / USPSA / ETC. and it was alittle over 5 lbs and i had no problem ,this is also my carry gun. I have the FS down to around 2-3 lbs and love it . Greg offers to lighten your trigger and will give you 30 days to go back for free to lighten it further . Like everything else on this site it is preference but i have had very good work done by him and have been treated very fair . Asking questions and getting info doesn't cost a dime .

 

[Lugnut]

I think I would disagree with Mike and all his followers.... I think a lighter trigger will always make it much easier to break a good shot while holding a good sight picture. I have no issue with mushy as long as the pull isn't too outrageous.

Example- my double action revolver is now a nice smooth 7.5lbs +/- There is no crisp break at all but it's damn smooth and a hell of a lot easier than when I had a smooth 12lb trigger. However in a Glock 7.5lb crisp trigger would be just awful. I've tried some sub 2lb Glock triggers that were just amazing.

Light is always better. Now that being said I want/need a nice reset.

Another issue is shooter experience. I WOULD NOT recommend a new shooter use a M&P with much less than say 4lbs. Learn good trigger control before dinking with lighter triggers.

YMMV

 

[Supermoto]

That because you shoot a glock, if you are going to drag a tin can down a gravel road, it might as well be a light can.

If you don't know when the trigger is going to break, you can't prep the trigger properly.

reset is never felt during a USPSA stage

Shooting a revolver is different as you are constantly rolling the trigger.... 7.5lbs

 

[Lugnut]

That because you shoot a glock, if you are going to drag a tin can down a gravel road, it might as well be a light can.

If you don't know when the trigger is going to break, you can't prep the trigger properly.

reset is never felt during a USPSA stage

Shooting a revolver is different as you are constantly rolling the trigger.... 7.5lbs

Ahhh I can always count on you to cheer me up when I've had a long day!

I didn't say you don't need to prep the trigger- of course you do. Whether it's a 2011 or a Glock you still prep the trigger... albeit the prep is different.

Reset- you might not feel the precise "reset" click... I guess I include the trigger rebound force in my "reset". I hate guns that feel like your trigger can hardly follow your finger.

Rolling the trigger= prep... agreed.

 

[danashan]

I would suggest that you take a look at the APEX drop it parts. I have a full size M&P that LaRocca did, a compact that Derr did and have tried a few M&P's with APEX parts in them. All three are MUCH better than the MA stock trigger but if I had to rate the triggers it would be APEX, LaRocca, Derr.

I've had the question about whether to go with the APEX vs. Derr's work on NES before. I think there was no agreement, except with the fact that APEX parts are great, but so is Derr's work And APEX gives you only one trigger weight, which is about 6.5lb for MA gun, AFAIK .

This will be my first gun and I am a little worried about screwing it up doing the mod myself, especially I'm worried about putting the back site back properly centered. I'v even got the tools for the work, but I'm still not sure I want to risk it

Also, knowing that S&W changed the sear spring lately, I'm not sure how APEX parts will play with the new config. They sure have trouble with the new RAM.

Any thoughts on that?

 

[Glshooter]

Apex is all drop in parts so you can return the gun to stock if you like. You can try different spring combinations and experiment yourself. They are easy to install, instructional video is on youtube. Parts show up at your door and you never have to send the gun anywhere. They are very close to the gunsmith trigger jobs.

Personally, in striker fired guns I prefer a trigger around 3lb. There is more take up than single action guns and less than that and you get some surprises.

 

[Lugnut]

FWIW- I've tried a few guns with the Apex parts- I was amazed. I think they were likely in the 2lb range for sure. Like Glshooter said- a couple of them were slightly different because of different spring they used.... one used a different trigger spring I believe.

 

[WeedWhacker]

I have the APEX kit, and use it in my M&P for IDPA and USPSA. I've owned guns with Burwell,Derr. Have shot guns with many other smiths work done.

APEX bang for the buck is high, as its a drop in kit you do not have to ship your gun anywhere, drop it off at a shop ETC ETC. Buy parts and go.

With this being your 1st gun I also assume(and i could be TERRIBLY WRONG) that you might not have allot of trigger time with handguns at this time. How quickly you would notice some of the differences between SOME of the trigger jobs is unknown

The APEX install is really simple, not sure how one could mess it up other than loose a small spring during installation. Working in a "big zip lock bag" will keep that spring etc from being lost for ever until a replacement can be procured.

The RAM IMO pass for right now, I personally love a nice reset but spend the $ on some bullets and start shooting and see where things go, if you are going to be doing action sports I honestly do not know how people "feel" the reset while running and gunning.. Maybe when you become a grand master you will...

If you are local to HSC I could show you a APEX, Burwell and Derr trigger job and maybe that would help make your decision.

This will be my first gun and I am a little worried about screwing it up doing the mod myself, especially I'm worried about putting the back site back properly centered. I'v even got the tools for the work, but I'm still not sure I want to risk it

Also, knowing that S&W changed the sear spring lately, I'm not sure how APEX parts will play with the new config. They sure have trouble with the new RAM.

Any thoughts on that?

 

[WeedWhacker]

one used a different trigger spring I believe.

I have felt 3 APEX kits 1 of them had the NEW trigger spring and it was right around 2lbs... Mine sits somewhere in the 3# range with the stock pro(free state?) spring.

 

[M1911]

That because you shoot a glock, if you are going to drag a tin can down a gravel road, it might as well be a light can.

 

[danashan]

APEX bang for the buck is high, as its a drop in kit you do not have to ship your gun anywhere, drop it off at a shop ETC ETC. Buy parts and go.

You prefer the APEX route, if I read you correctly.
Either APEX or Derr will run me about $100. A little less for APEX, if I only get the USB and the sear.
Not having to deal with driving to the gunsmith, twice, is a consideration. Having a professional do the job is a consideration, too. I also thought of asking Greg Derr about putting a Dawson front site, while he's at it.
If I decide on APEX, I'll call them up and ask if I need their springs set to get to 4+lbs trigger weight.

With this being your 1st gun I also assume(and i could be TERRIBLY WRONG) that you might not have allot of trigger time with handguns at this time. How quickly you would notice some of the differences between SOME of the trigger jobs is unknown

I've no handgun trigger time to speak of, indeed. Only about 1000 rounds, of which about 500 through a rented M&P9fs at AFS. I'm not that concerned about getting the absolute best trigger - heck, I thought the rental had a trigger that I could live with (unlike the same way rented G19 ). That's default MA trigger with unknown round count through the gun. I'm sure I'll be fine with either APEX or Derr, for years if not forever.

The APEX install is really simple

Famous last words?

The RAM IMO pass for right now, I personally love a nice reset but spend the $ on some bullets and start shooting and see where things go, if you are going to be doing action sports I honestly do not know how people "feel" the reset while running and gunning.. Maybe when you become a grand master you will...

Absolutely.

If you are local to HSC I could show you a APEX, Burwell and Derr trigger job and maybe that would help make your decision.

I'd love that. I'm still waiting on my LTC (8 weeks already, god damn it) so I can't even buy the ammo to try the guns. I'd love to get an intro to HSC anyway, since I'll be going to open IDPA practices there, hopefully, when I finally get my gear in decent shape.

 

[WeedWhacker]

I'd love that. I'm still waiting on my LTC (8 weeks already, god damn it) so I can't even buy the ammo to try the guns. I'd love to get an intro to HSC anyway, since I'll be going to open IDPA practices there, hopefully, when I finally get my gear in decent shape.

Why wait??? I can loan you a M&P setup for the 12/6 7:30PM IDPA Practice no LTC required for that... Ammo is on me.

 

[danashan]

Why wait??? I can loan you a M&P setup for the 12/6 7:30PM IDPA Practice no LTC required for that... Ammo is on me.

I don't know how to thank you. I'll be there. Please PM me if something changes.
I hope I'll get my LTC before that, so at least I can bring my own ammo.
I'll bring you some cigars, if you partake?

 

[TheRoland]

Also, be careful going too low if you're new. It's not actually all that difficult to shoot unintentional pairs or (god forbid) have an ND while reloading or drawing if you're not 100% sure where your finger is at all times.

A 5+ pound trigger is totally serviceable in IDPA. I used to shoot a Sig (10 pound double action) and switching away had little to do with the trigger weight.

 

[danashan]

Also, be careful going too low if you're new. It's not actually all that difficult to shoot unintentional pairs or (god forbid) have an ND while reloading or drawing if you're not 100% sure where your finger is at all times.

A 5+ pound trigger is totally serviceable in IDPA. I used to shoot a Sig (10 pound double action) and switching away had little to do with the trigger weight.

Yes, makes sense. Having the APEX DCAEK may make sense in case I want to play with springs to get to different trigger weights with time.
Thanks for all the feedback. I'm looking forward to start training, even though my wife will probably not like me being away 2 more nights a months

 

[Alex Cannella]

I had Greg Derr do my trigger when I got my M&P 9mm Compact several years ago. It was better than stock. After trying a friend's M&P .45 after he installed an Apex DCAEK kit, I bought the kit and installed it with realtively little trouble (and I'm nowhere near being a gunsmith). The only thing that the APEX YouTube video doesn't mention is to be sure that the slide lock spring deosn't become too compressed when you reassemle the trigger mechanism. If that happens you'll get intermittant slide lock even with a loaded mag in the gun.

After the installation, the trigger improved immediately. I haven't tested the trigger pull as yet, but I don't think it is anywhere as low as 2 lbs.

According to the APEX iinstructional video on YouTube, you end up with a trigger pull of about 4.5 lbs. The trigger is smooth, travel is reduced, and the reset is faster.

If you're in MA, you need to specify that you need a spring for a MA-compliant M&P. The sear spring is much larger than what comes in the non-MA complaint kits.

 

[danashan]

OK, folks, I'm convinced. APEX it will be!

 

[Alex Cannella]

Danashan,

If you still have doubts about installing the parts yourself, you still have the option of buying the Apex Duty Carry Action Enhancement Kit (DCAEK) kit and having a gunsmith install them.

It's about an hour's work or less.