Update 2/21 Westford Ban

[FrugalFannie]

We have a name.

We are Westford Pro 2A.

We had people asking us how to identify us and talk about us as a group. I just set out an email to everyone on our list. So if you sked to be on the list and you don't get an email about the name, send me an email. I think I got everyone but I may have missed a few.

 

[RLBreton]

I don't know if anyone saw this yet--I just spotted in on facebook--go to article 30 to read the gun ban proposal...infuriating

http://westfordma.gov/pages/governm...ts/2013atm/DRAFT_2013ATMWARRANT_1-23-2013.pdf

 

[HuntMaine]

Re: Westford, MA Proposed Gun Ban

you would think when they wrote it they might describe what weapons they are banning. My shotgun had a 5 round capacity is that banned, what is high? I just don't see how the hell this passes muster when the state already relates the shit out of firearms here

 

[Coyote33]

I don't think my blood pressure went, but I was intrigued. Hell, if Westford wants to reconstitute the militia and require citizens to muster with their ARs on the town common from time to time I might just move to Westford. That could be fun and what could go wrong?

Why not? Lexington is going to do it!

Muster on Lexington Battle Green

 

[FrugalFannie]

you would think when they wrote it they might describe what weapons they are banning. My shotgun had a 5 round capacity is that banned, what is high? I just don't see how the hell this passes muster when the state already relates the shit out of firearms here

They reference current law to define large capacity so any magazine over 10 rounds would be banned, any rifle or pistol able to accept a magazine over 10 rounds would be banned (so, yes all those guns you just thought of would be banned) and any shotgun capable of holding more than 5 shells, regardless of whether you had a restricter in it. No grandfathering either.

 

[Coyote33]

Maybe you should invite those Oath Keeper guys and all the town veterans to your next Board of Selectmen meeting, and tell them you are going to have a little ceremony after.

 

[HuntMaine]

Re: Westford, MA Proposed Gun Ban

So im left with.....my cap gun?
Anyone can make the case that any gun with a magazine could potentially have a magazine made that could carry more than 10 bullets do this is s great way for them to ban everything except 6 shooters and single shot rifles?

 

[hank95lightning]

hi i am a first time poster who is a westford ltc holder. i would like to help out in any way that i can. I am on the board of directors for the haverhill gun club and work for a class 3 dealer in natick. we at the store have been studying the legislation and its a huge pile of garbage. also my girl friend is a westford ltc licence holder who happens to be a lawyer and has some good points on how to fight this. let us know what we can do to help

 

[Coyote33]

hi i am a first time poster who is a westford ltc holder. i would like to help out in any way that i can. I am on the board of directors for the haverhill gun club and work for a class 3 dealer in natick. we at the store have been studying the legislation and its a huge pile of garbage. also my girl friend is a westford ltc licence holder who happens to be a lawyer and has some good points on how to fight this. let us know what we can do to help

Welcome to NES. It never hurts to have a lawyer at the ready to draw up a motion or amendment at Town Meeting. ;-)

 

[Matt_SERE]

Okay. As you guys know, we have people reading these boards who ar not our friends. For this reason, not all of our strategy is being posted. If you think of something we need to consider please email me. I will respond. If you don't see it posted here after that don't assume we are not doing something. Some things are just better held close to the vest. Even those of you who have sent me their email addresses will not get the complete story in one shot. We have some very specific needs and some very real concerns given the format of Town Meeting. We will be asking you guys and gals for help. We will give you as much notice as possible. We do have a short, mid and long term strategy. We suspect our short term strategy will not get it done. We are primarily banking on the mid term and focusing our efforts on that. As a last resort we have a long term strategy and people working on that and ready to implement should it become necessary. We are hoping to avoid that long term plan.

We are not going to fold. We are not going to let you down. We will do everything we can to engage the right people in this battle. We know we have more than just our rights to fight for. We understand the implications if this passes. There are many intelligent people working on this. Thankfully they are much more intelligent than I am. We are trying to avoid duplicating efforts.

SO again, if you have an idea or want to help, email me and wait for my response before posting the idea. I can't stop you from posting. I can't stop you from putting your own plan in to action. But we are really trying to do this in the best way possible so that we keep all our rights in tact. Please email me at [email protected].

hi i am a first time poster who is a westford ltc holder. i would like to help out in any way that i can. I am on the board of directors for the haverhill gun club and work for a class 3 dealer in natick. we at the store have been studying the legislation and its a huge pile of garbage. also my girl friend is a westford ltc licence holder who happens to be a lawyer and has some good points on how to fight this. let us know what we can do to help

Welcome to NES. It never hurts to have a lawyer at the ready to draw up a motion or amendment at Town Meeting. ;-)

Hank,

Welcome.
If I were you I would PM or EMail PennyPincher and go from there.
Westford is not my town either but all useful help for the cause is good.

 

[Apathesis]

WOW. That Westford bill is absolutely bogus. Not only does it erroneously blame "assault weapons" for the majority of civilian and LEO homicides, which is a COMPLETE LIE (.38 revolvers are preferred), but it bans machine guns? Don't these politicians realize legally-owned machine guns are not only extremely cost prohibitive to own, but have been used in ZERO of the mass shootings that had fatalities? The last notable instance to involve automatics was the 1997 North Hollywood shootout, and those guns were modified--illegally. The only two people to die were the shooters.

 

[OfficerObie59]

Westford, MA Proposed Gun Ban

...but it bans machine guns? Don't these politicians realize legally-owned machine guns are not only extremely cost prohibitive to own, but have been used in ZERO of the mass shootings that had fatalities?

I'd be curious to know how many Green Cards Westford PD has issued. My guess is that it's close to zero, if not zero.

 

[mclina]

I'd be curious to know how many Green Cards Westford PD has issued. My guess is that it's close to zero, if not zero.

One of the articles linked on this forum showed a chart of FID, LTC and MG licenses in Westford by year. There were either zero or one MG licenses listed for each year on the chart. I can't remember how far back it went, but I think it was 5-10 years.

 

[FrugalFannie]

I know of 1. And the PD doesn't issue green cards. That's done by the feds.

 

[CrackPot]

Westford, MA Proposed Gun Ban

I know of 1. And the PD doesn't issue green cards. That's done by the feds.

Maybe green cards means two different things? MA machine gun license is green so on a gun forum it is a green card. Over on the libtard forums green cards are issued to all future democratic voters and issued by the federal .gov...


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[FrugalFannie]

Maybe green cards means two different things? MA machine gun license is green so on a gun forum it is a green card. Over on the libtard forums green cards are issued to all future democratic voters and issued by the federal .gov...


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

Yep. And the local PD does not issue green cards. It's out of their hands thankfully.

 

[eisenhow]

Yep. And the local PD does not issue green cards. It's out of their hands thankfully.

??? The ATF processes all the tax stamps but the PD still is the licensing authority which issues the MA "License to Possess a Machine Gun". Getting that license is still subject to the licensing authority discretion that an LTC is subject to.

 

[exojam]

Unless I am reading this wrong (see below), it appears the state or LA does the stuff for machine guns.

"No person shall be issued a license to carry or possess a machine gun in the commonwealth, except that a licensing authority or the colonel of state police may issue a machine gun license to:"

From here:
General Laws: CHAPTER 140, Section 131

James

- - - Updated - - -

 

[Len-2A Training]

Yes, the process for issuing MG licenses is IDENTICAL to the process for issuing LTCs, except more chiefs (even green towns) will absolutely refuse as part of their "discretion"!

When licenses were on paper, the MG license was green paper, hence "green card". Now it is a green stripe across the top to distinguish it from a LTC or FID.

 

[Coyote33]

Yes, the process for issuing MG licenses is IDENTICAL to the process for issuing LTCs, except more chiefs (even green towns) will absolutely refuse as part of their "discretion"!

When licenses were on paper, the MG license was green paper, hence "green card". Now it is a green stripe across the top to distinguish it from a LTC or FID.

You know what? I never even thought of it being a plastic card. I just thought they were still the paper ones. I don't have one, and haven't seen one in a long time. Doesn't the article below say we should all be able to have one?

Assault Weapon issue everyone needs to be reminded of:

 

[jar]

+1 to those who say it's the CLEO who issues MG licenses. The feds process the NFA paperwork and tax stamp, but they won't do so without a copy of a MA machine gun license ("green card"). There is in fact 1 green card holder in Westford. I know who he is, but won't out him here. He can do so if he chooses.

 

[calsdad]

I've been mulling this over in my head for days. And one of the things that has really been bugging me - is that I don't think these people - or anybody for that matter - is really thinking this out.

I posted this on the Westford Patch site a short while ago.

__________________________________________________________


If the people or person who was proposing this law was being totally honest then he would also be discussing what it would take to implement it - and what that would cost the town.

A good comparison to this proposed law could be made to the current state of the drug laws in this country. For a law to be "just" and not just an arbitrary ranting of whomever is in charge at any particular time - there has got to be at least some logic behind the law. The "logic" behind the drug laws are that narcotics and other mind enhancing drugs - destroy people's lives and affect society at large. Agree with the laws or not - that is what I believe the underlying logic of those laws are.

In order for this anti "assault weapon" law to be just - I believe there must be some logic behind it. It seems that Mr. Jeffries believes that by eliminating those firearms from the town - a school shooting may potentially be avoided.

So here's the thing - if that is the underlying logic of this law - then in order for the law to not be a joke or just some sort of feel good measure that nobody pays attention to - then the a logical set of steps must follow from that law.

Firstly all of the lawfully owned firearms that meet that classification must be eliminated from the town. This could be done voluntary or involuntarily. The state of MA requires an FA-10 form to be filed for all firearms purchased or transferred. I believe the police have access to that information.

Those records - are held by the Criminal History Services Board. It is known among people that have experience with this system - that it is messed up and the records are not complete.

So - what that means is that you cannot rely on those records to find out who everybody is and what all the firearms are that exist in town.

That is point 1.

Point 2 is that the current MA licensing system allows a person - including any person who lives in Westford - to go out and buy any MA legal firearm that meets the license level they posess. What this means is that if a person has an LTC Class A they are licensed by the state of MA to concealed carry (if they have not been restricted when the license was issued) , they can purchase handguns with removeable magazines - and they can purchase "high capacity" rifles - which means those that take removable magazines. The Class A license allows the possessor to purchas what would likely be seen by the Westford law as "assault weapons". So - the Westford Police would have to stop issuing those licenses to ANY Westford resident - because if they did not - then Westford assault weapon ban or not - a person could just go buy one in any gun store in MA - OR ANY CONTINGENT STATE - and bring that firearm back into Westford. Without revoking all Class A licenses - this law would have no teeth.

So Westford residents would have to be restricted by the Police Chief to class B licenses - which means revolvers and rifles no removable magazine. That means anybody in the town of Westford who has a semi-automatic pistol - or a hunting rifle with a removeable magazine - would lose the level of license that allows them to own that - and those firearms also would be effectively banned from the town. It also means any body with a permit to carry concealed - would no longer be able to do that. Many women have concealed carry permits because of abusive ex - husbands, boyfriends, whatever. People have carry permits because they work in dangerous areas or because they have a dangerous profession - like jewelry store owner or armored truck driver.

In order for this law to have real teeth - that licensing can no longer be issued by Westford - so all of those types of people can kiss their own ability to self defend goodbye.

The next thing that must happen - is house to house searches. I can tell you for an absolute fact that there are people all over the state of MA that are unlicensed - and in the possesion of firearms. They may have had a license years ago and let it lapse, may have moved here from another state, may not even know they are supposed to be licensed. The reason is irrelevant - these people exist - and they own firearms - and you don't have any record that they have them.

Some of the weapons that are classified as "assault weapons" - are decades old. The M1 carbine - which is a WW2 era rifle - has been readily available to civilians for decades. Many vets from WW2 , Korea, Vietnam - even Desert STorm and Iraq - and Afghanistan - have brought weapons home with them from their overseas duty. Stories about people finding "bring backs" up in their attic show up with regularity in the news. Recently in CT a woman turned in a Stg44 - which IS an assault weapon - German , from WW2. And they were full automatic. It was in her attic or something like that. I have heard stories like this for decades.

Why bring this up? Because this is point number 3. If the logic of this law is that "assault weapons" must be eliminated from the town in order to avoid a school shooting - you MUST GET ALL OF THEM. And what I am saying is this - unless you literally do a house to house search - you will never get all of them. They are sitting up in attics, sitting in basements , etc. Some kid someday will be up in in his grandmother's attic - find the M1 carbine that his grandfather left up there 2 decades ago - hidden in the rafters, take that rifle - and start shooting up his school. Right? I mean isn't that what this proposed law presumes? The the literal existence of "assault weapons" in town - will lead to a shooting? So you must search and confiscate ALL of them.

The last point I would like to make is: there can be no exclusions. The law MUST apply to police and fire and town employees and federal employees - EVERYBODY.

If the underlying premise and logic of the law is that the weapons must literally be eliminated from town to avoid the shooting - then that MUST include ALL people. Who knows when some police officers kid might kill his father - and take his weapons - like Adam Lanza did in CT? The firearms must simply not exist in the town.

I hope the people who are proposing this law - and who are contemplating passing it - have fully thought this out. I hope the peopel of Westford who will have this law inflicted upon them - will be in full possession of the facts of what the implications are of this law when it goes thru.

But somehow I doubt that.


______________________________________________________________

 

[Coyote33]

... discussing what it would take to implement it - and what that would cost the town.
...
I hope the people who are proposing this law - and who are contemplating passing it - have fully thought this out. I hope the people of Westford ... will be in full possession of the facts of what the implications are of this law when it goes thru. ...

MANY letters to the editor of the local paper need to hammer this home. Then the people will take care of the rest!

 

[FrugalFannie]

Yes, the process for issuing MG licenses is IDENTICAL to the process for issuing LTCs, except more chiefs (even green towns) will absolutely refuse as part of their "discretion"!

When licenses were on paper, the MG license was green paper, hence "green card". Now it is a green stripe across the top to distinguish it from a LTC or FID.

I stand corrected. I was misinformed. Thank you.

 

[FrugalFannie]

Calsdad. You are correct. The proposal is not well thought out and the implications have not been discussed. This is a large part of what we will be bringing to the BoS and Town meeting shoudl it get that far.

Part of the problem is that 'we' are thinking logically and they are reacting based on emotion.

 

[Coyote33]

Finance Committee

 

[JimB]

Calsdad. You are correct. The proposal is not well thought out and the implications have not been discussed. This is a large part of what we will be bringing to the BoS and Town meeting shoudl it get that far.

Part of the problem is that 'we' are thinking logically and they are reacting based on emotion.

see it all the time, all they say is do something, never explain whats

in their little pinhead.

 

[calsdad]

Calsdad. You are correct. The proposal is not well thought out and the implications have not been discussed. This is a large part of what we will be bringing to the BoS and Town meeting shoudl it get that far.

Part of the problem is that 'we' are thinking logically and they are reacting based on emotion.

The reason why I posted what I did - is because I believe that if the TRUE facts about what it will entail to REALLY implement this law - you're going to get a hell of a lot of "emotion" going on out there.

I honestly believe if you apply the same logic that is used to justify the anti drug laws in this country - to the this law - what you are inevitably going to end up with is house to house searches of every house in town to find ALL of the "assault weapons" that exist there. Because the reality of it is that they simply cannot go by just the CHSB records alone - they MUST assume those firearms exist "off the books" - and they MUST go looking for them.

They must also eliminate all licensing for EVERYBODY in town - that would allow them to go out and purchase "assault weapons" because the truth of the matter is that Westford has absolutely no way to prevent more from coming into town without doing that.

Otherwise the law is just a complete waste of time.

Print up a coherent explanation of this and drop it into every mailbox in town - and see what the people think about having the police pull their houses apart looking for an assault weapon that grampa left up in the attic 20 years ago and nobody even remembers was there.

I could further talk about the realities of acquiring AR's thru 80% lowers, 3D printing, home machine shops - etc. to drive the point home.

The basic point is this: without the implementation of a complete "police town" - this law is just a joke.

It will be about as effective at eliminating "assault weapons" from the town - as the drug laws have been at eliminating narcotics from the US at large.

In other words - useless.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Sadly, I'm sure that many wouldn't have a problem with door to door searches of every house in the town, after all if you have nothing to hide . . .

Seriously this is a pervasive attitude of many who feel that the gov't is responsible for their well being!

Of course the $$ cost to the town might awaken some, but will it be enough??

 

[calsdad]

Sadly, I'm sure that many wouldn't have a problem with door to door searches of every house in the town, after all if you have nothing to hide . . .

Seriously this is a pervasive attitude of many who feel that the gov't is responsible for their well being!

Of course the $$ cost to the town might awaken some, but will it be enough??

That's probably true. But I would guarantee you that there is a whole bunch of other people who would be scared shitless about that.

Another thing I didn't really got into - is the relative ease with which one can build an AR. With the availability of 80% lowers - which do not need to go thru an FFL dealer, the availability of the blueprints to build an AR receiver available on the internet , 3D printing technology - etc. - and if you then look at this and compare it to the way the drug laws have gone in this country - you can almost directly parallel the relatively easily available methods to build an AR - with the manufacture of illegal drugs.

Look at what the law does , how it designates things as "drug paraphrenalia" - regulates grow lights and stuff like that - and then start looking around at how many people have mini-mills down in their basement shops , or even a drill press. How many hobby wordworkers have a drilll press? Or for that matter a lathe? Do not start getting stuck on the technicalities - just point out to people that all of these pieces of equipment could be used to build "assault weapons" - and therefore could completely logically end up being seen as illegal under the same logic that has been applied using the anti drug laws.

The legal precedents are already there. All it takes is for somebody to start taking those arguments and applying them to basement manufacture of "assault weapons".

Hell - tell these idiots that somebody - right here in MA - recently built an AK-47 from a shovel - and then find the appropriate cases where materials that could be used to manufacture illegal drugs - were seized and or regulated (like cold medicine) - and start telling people that shovels will now be regulated and or seized.

Like I said - anybody with even a passing familiarity with the drug laws could make direct parallels to the manufacture of illegal "assault weapons" and make a perfectly logical case about where where laws like this are directly headed.