VT Shooter had "issues" in writing class

drgrant

drgrant

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http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/04/17/vtech.shooting/index.html

Long story short.... teacher knew something was wrong with this
guy, reported him to cops, administration, nobody did anything. (not suggesting
that people should be arrested for what they "might" do, but if the teacher
was disturbed enough to report it, I think that's pretty telling. )

I also read some blog posts of other people who had been in a class
with him and he was the first person they thought of when they heard
about the incidents.

-Mike
 
I saw the links to a couple of his plays. My God, this kid had some big time issues. Wow. Scary.
 
No more perversion or violence than a lot of rock songs and Hollywood movies have been advocating for the past forty years. And everybody's shocked when somebody actually does something with those ideas and imagery? I am Jack's complete lack of surprise.
 
drgrant said:
I also read some blog posts of other people who had been in a class
with him and he was the first person they thought of when they heard
about the incidents.
Click to expand...

Every work place has that one guy who everybody thinks will snap one day. If I hear gun shots at my work my money is on one guy. There really isn't a whole lot you can do other than keep your eye on them...
 
Would this person have been able to get an ltc in MA? Meaning was there any record of his mental illness somewhere whether it be with the police or a medical professional? As much as I think the MA laws are complete bull, the refusal on basis of past mental history might be the only useful part of them. Assuming the person would buy guns legally of course...
 
TomH said:
Would this person have been able to get an ltc in MA? Meaning was there any record of his mental illness somewhere whether it be with the police or a medical professional? As much as I think the MA laws are complete bull, the refusal on basis of past mental history might be the only useful part of them. Assuming the person would buy guns legally of course...
Click to expand...



He probably would have passed them with flying colors. So would Mucko (Remember him?). The mentally ill are no more prone to violence than anybody else in the population. Cho would have got the license, esp. if he only wanted "Target/Hunting" as a reason for issuance. Anybody here really think Cho would would have paid attention to that restriction on his license? He was carrying concealed at VT, and had AFAIK no VA CCW License. More laws that sicko criminals don't obey...
 
TomH said:
Would this person have been able to get an ltc in MA? Meaning was there any record of his mental illness somewhere whether it be with the police or a medical professional? As much as I think the MA laws are complete bull, the refusal on basis of past mental history might be the only useful part of them. Assuming the person would buy guns legally of course...
Click to expand...

MGL PROHIBITS the issuance of LTCs to ANY alien, regardless of legal status!

BTW, MGL ALLOWS MSP to issue NR LTC to non-resident (non-MA) aliens! Total dumb inconsistency we should expect from the numb-nuts we elect.

MGL prohibits issuing permits to anyone COMMITTED by the STATE for Mental Illness (or drug/alcohol). However, if it is a PRIVATE committal, this does NOT apply (per MGLs). However, if a chief sniffs the fact that someone sought treatment for mental illness/drug/alcohol (private treatment), it's almost certain that he'd deny on "suitability".

By law, the DQ can be waived with a doctor's letter that the person is "cured", but the chief still holds the "suitability" trump card.
 
derek said:
Every work place has that one guy who everybody thinks will snap one day. If I hear gun shots at my work my money is on one guy. There really isn't a whole lot you can do other than keep your eye on them...
Click to expand...

+1 to this. This guy was a freak, but he was a One-in-a-million freak. What scares me is the knee-jerk reaction to look for similarities and declare that person a "Ticking Time Bomb"

We all know of people who are "odd", but almost none of them do anything even remotely this bad.

We are all innocent untill proven guilty. Remember that.

-Weer'd Beard
 
Has anybody ever read any of Stephen King's early work? Pretty disturbing stuff. You can't hang somebody because of the way they write. Now if you add up all the other things that he had going on, that should have set off bells and whistles.
 
LenS said:
MGL PROHIBITS the issuance of LTCs to ANY alien, regardless of legal status!

BTW, MGL ALLOWS MSP to issue NR LTC to non-resident (non-MA) aliens! Total dumb inconsistency we should expect from the numb-nuts we elect.
Click to expand...

Absolutely dumb inconsistency, I agree. And I know you are not suggesting aliens be banned from having guns, but I'm sure we will hear something about banning people who are not full-fledged US Citizens from having CCW permits, from owning guns, from firing guns, from touching guns or ammo, etc.

Yet I keep getting back to those nagging words: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

It's not so much why non-Citizens should have the RKBA, but more why anyone should be denied the RKBA.

So maybe there's nobody to throw to the wolves ...
 
GaryO said:
Has anybody ever read any of Stephen King's early work? Pretty disturbing stuff. You can't hang somebody because of the way they write. Now if you add up all the other things that he had going on, that should have set off bells and whistles.
Click to expand...

I was thinking the exact same thing. Personally I never much liked King's gore-fests. But at least king wrote better than this creep.

I just read the plays and they are violent, and obsessive....but frankly being objective I've tons of stuff like this from immiture boys.

I think no matter how much we try and make sence of this guy, the peices will never line up.

-Weer'd Beard
 
Weer'd Beard said:
+1 to this. This guy was a freak, but he was a One-in-a-million freak. What scares me is the knee-jerk reaction to look for similarities and declare that person a "Ticking Time Bomb"

We all know of people who are "odd", but almost none of them do anything even remotely this bad.

We are all innocent untill proven guilty. Remember that.

-Weer'd Beard
Click to expand...

I agree with what you're getting at, and also agree that
there is a bad precedent in terms of "precrime"... but this
guy was over the top weirdball.

The difference is... if you had a guy like Stephen King in
your writing class, that was writing insane/bizarre
stuff, he probably would have a way of explaining why
he wrote what he did, and then there would be no
issue... but this guy was over the top weirdo.... having
him in your class would be like having an islamist in
your class muttering "all infidels must die" and randomly
saying "ALLAH ACKBAR" for seemingly no apparrent
reason. From outward appearances he was almost that
messed up.

-Mike
 
derek said:
Every work place has that one guy who everybody thinks will snap one day. If I hear gun shots at my work my money is on one guy. There really isn't a whole lot you can do other than keep your eye on them...
Click to expand...

True, but there is an issue of probability. I had a guy
who I used to share an office with, that I thought was like
that.... because of his temper and how he would get
inflamed for no apparent reason. That being said,
"fartmaster" did not even hold a candle up to someone
like the guy these people are describing. This isn't like
one person noticed him being defective- a lot of people
did, and the teacher was completely freaked out.

I guess what I'm getting at is there are weird people,
but then you have people like this guy, who might as
well have had "psychopath" tattooed into his forehead.

-Mike
 
drgrant said:
there is a bad precedent in terms of "precrime"... but this
guy was over the top weirdball.
Click to expand...

I've met King a few times. I don't know him well, and he's DEFINETLY a very charismatic individual.

But he was an angry protester in the 60s. And an alcoholic and a drug addict up untill the late 80's IIRC.

And he is VERY eccentric and has some very odd habits (I read he hops over the 13th stair going up and down the stairs every time).

If a young King had shot-up U-Maine, we'd be saying the same thing.

Bottom line, 20-20 hindsight is NOT 20-20 fore-sight.

We can play this game all day.

-Weer'd Beard
 
Lots of very disturbed kids in colleges. These are people who are just starting to learn what the 'real world' is like. The social cliques of High School are gone. Nobody is telling them how to live their lives or even if they have to go to class.

Add on top of that any other personality issues and I'll bet you get a pretty large percentage with some kind of issue that can impact their scholastics.

This guy had some issues, but I wonder how many like him exist that never harm a soul.

You could make all kinds of generalizations.

Video Game players
Loners
Gun Owners
Violent writings

Um... Kind of sounds like me in College. Are you all scared? (^_^)
 
Weer'd Beard said:
+1 to this. This guy was a freak, but he was a One-in-a-million freak. What scares me is the knee-jerk reaction to look for similarities and declare that person a "Ticking Time Bomb"

We all know of people who are "odd", but almost none of them do anything even remotely this bad.

We are all innocent untill proven guilty. Remember that.

-Weer'd Beard
Click to expand...

I think you mean Guilty until proven innocent.
 
Weer'd Beard said:
Don't forget the Porn!

If it wasn't for Porn I doubt I would have even graduated! [rofl]
Click to expand...

Nah, I had Dawn, Karen, and Andrea. Damn, haddn't thought about them in years. Wonder what they are up to now. Probably married and changed their names so I can't hunt them down and force my wife (also an English major) to break into my safes.

(^_^)
 
I read his play and other than angry swearing. It had a kinda Alfred Hitchcock overtone to it.
Whose Crystal Ball could have ever predicted the outcome? No ones. No one could tell by looking at him, no one could tell by any type of palm reading or physic interview what he was going to do that day.
He had alot of anger and he had a mission, that was very clear when he chained the doors. Looking at his victims, it didn't matter to him if they were Black, White, male, female, American or non-American he was seeking total destruction. His mission was to kill. What strikes me as odd was there were NO AK-47s, No M-16s, No real Assault Weapons per se. Feinstein and Boxer are alreay reading into it anf the PM of Australia thinks he has a model country, so get ready for the after birth. If there was ever a time for all of us to stand up and speak, it is now. We must confuse their mission by demanding that everyone should have a RIGHT to protect their own life and do so by excercising their right to carry. Put the Gun control avocates on the Defense by having all of us insist on the RIGHT to Carry and the right to use deadly force to protect. Don't give them a second to think that we need less protection by imposingGun Control, onssit that the ONLY real protection is for us to be able to protect ourselves with the Right to BEAR and USE Arms.
 
Last edited:
I guess the point I was trying to make is that this guy was
blatantly obvious- and had set off peoples instinctive alarm
bells, not just notions based on like one or two characteristics.

Having "been there and done that" WRT college, and knowing other people
in the same type of situation, while these people had issues, I doubt
any of them were anywhere near the same magnitude of sociopathic
tendencies as this guy was. There' s the loner kid with the trenchcoat
that doesn't talk to too many people, and then there;s this guy- someone
who barely appears human in any facet.

I will ultimately concede that, yes, psychological profiling (of otherwise
innocent people) is usually an abject failure in reality for a multitude of
reasons- the first of which is, such profiling won't detect those who are
adept at obscuring their feelings from other people... there are always
charismatic psychos out there. There are also many who are "fine" one
minute and then off the deep end the next. Detecting these individuals
would be nearly impossible.

Then there are the obvious civil rights implications.... when we start thinking
of these things, then there is "pre crime" "dna screeening" etc... it is a slippery
slope to go down. The only way, within current framework, that
it would have been legitimate to take action against him was if his demeanor
was also accompanied by physical acts of violence, or direct, detailed blatant threats.

Having said all that, the only REAL solution is allowing people to
be armed... wether they do it or not is another story, but at least if
the capability is there, the hope is that someone would take advantage
of it. I'm sure that teacher that blocked the door would have not hesitated
to "shoot back" had he had a gun in his hand at the time.


-Mike
 
http://apnews.excite.com/article/20070418/D8OJ2UOG0.html

Va. Gunman Had 2 Previous Stalking Cases

"The gunman blamed for the deadliest shooting in modern U.S. history had previously been accused of stalking two female students and had been taken to a mental health facility in 2005 after his parents worried he might be suicidal, police said Wednesday.

Cho Seung-Hui had concerned one woman enough with his calls and e-mail in 2005 that police were called in, said Police Chief Wendell Flinchum.

He said the woman declined to press charges and Cho was referred to the university disciplinary system. During one of those incidents, both in late 2005, the department received a call from Cho's parents who were concerned that he might be suicidal, and he was taken to a mental health facility, he said....

News reports said that Cho, a 23-year-old senior majoring in English, may have been taking medication for depression and that he was becoming increasingly erratic..."


1. Mental Health Disqualification: I guess we don't know if he was involuntarily committed to an inpatient mental health facility, or just talked to campus mental health councilors - someone knows but those facts aren't clear yet. I can see support arising for expansion of NICS to include mental health information http://www.gunowners.org/a012307.htm

2. Stalking: An opportunity to disqualify him missed when no charges were filed? Does such a conviction block on a NICS check?

3. Medication: Since when do new reports refer to other unqualified news reports as sources? In this media feeding frenzy, reportings are biting each other on the arse for a tidbit of news to publish thats "fresh".

When the facts are fully clear (at least as clear as they can be), so much disinformation will be floating around that we won't be able to sift fact from fiction. One thing seems clear - he was one sick puppy...
 
MaverickNH said:
...2. Stalking: An opportunity to disqualify him missed when no charges were filed? Does such a conviction block on a NICS check?...
Click to expand...
Here's the relevant NCIS section
The federally prohibitive criteria outlining the reasons an individual may be precluded from the transfer/possession of a firearm or firearm-related permit, pursuant to Title 18 U.S.C., §§ 922 (g) and (n), are as follows:\
...
The subject of a protective order issued after a hearing in which the respondent had notice that restrains them from harassing, stalking, or threatening an intimate partner or child of such partner. This does not include ex parte orders.
Click to expand...
If I read this right he would have been disqualified if one of his stalking victims had obtained a restraining order, which I understand are relatively trivial to obtain.

Also, it sounded like he was seen at a mental health institution, but not involuntarily committed, which is what's required to disqualify one from ownership.

It's sad to see the rush to add new laws and rules when the ones we have are not used or enforced.
 

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