"wholly unobstructed from plain view"

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cmacclel

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So I got my Form 1 approved a while back and need to Engrave my SBR. I want to engrave the barrel with my Trust Information and since it's an SBR the handgaurd covers all of the barrel. My handgaurd does have 1" long by 3/8" wide slots that would make the trust name easily seen, there are many opinions on the ATF's "wholly unobstructed from plain view" statement.

I personally think if the trust name can be viewed without removing any parts then I would think it would be ok.

Opinion?
 
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I was under the impression it had to be on the lower/receiver since that is the part that is registered and has the tax stamp.
 
noxin said:
I was under the impression it had to be on the lower/receiver since that is the part that is registered and has the tax stamp.
Click to expand...

For an SBR it can be anywhere......Lower, Upper, or Barrel.

ATF 5300.4 in 27 CFR 479.102 (page 92) describes what is necessary to engrave on a SBR or SBS when one is manufacturing. This is not necessary if you purchase one that is already manufactured as it will have been done for you.

1) On the Frame or Receiver the Serial number;

2) on the frame, receiver, or barrel the following additional information;

A)The model;

B)The caliber or gage;

C)Your name or name of the Trust in the case of a Trust (no abbreviations are permitted for the Trust name);

D)The city and state (you can abbreviate the state with the official 2 digit state code)

The above mentioned information must be engraved, casted, stamped (impressing) or otherwise conspicuously placed or caused to be engraved, cast, stamped (impressed) or placed to a minimum depth of .003 inch and in a print size of the Serial number shall be no smaller than 1/16 inch.
 
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Upper. It is too easy to inadvertently obscure the trust name on a short barrel, and the upper and barrel can be easily removed together if the lower is to be repurposed.
 
DispositionMatrix said:
Upper. It is too easy to inadvertently obscure the trust name on a short barrel, and the upper and barrel can be easily removed together if the lower is to be repurposed.
Click to expand...

If I didn't have a $300 upper I would just engrave on the upper. The reason why I want to engrave the barrel is my SBR is on a Pre-Ban lower and and Expensive side charging upper. The barrel is the cheapest part :)
 
ReceiverSBRMarkings.jpg


X63AJWR.jpg


both are a-ok, but otherwise just do the barrel. so what if the handguards cover it? if they are removed in the unlikely event an ATF agent is checking out your blaster... well, it's not obscured anymore, is it?
 
noxin said:
I was under the impression it had to be on the lower/receiver since that is the part that is registered and has the tax stamp.
Click to expand...
In the case of an AR-15, that is correct, as the lower is the serialized part.

Even if you could get away with engraving the upper for an AR-style rifle, it makes no sense to do so, as that would prevent you from switching to a different short upper later.
 
Kevin_NH said:
In the case of an AR-15, that is correct, as the lower is the serialized part.

Even if you could get away with engraving the upper for an AR-style rifle, it makes no sense to do so, as that would prevent you from switching to a different short upper later.
Click to expand...


The trust name can be on the barrel, lower, or upper. It may not make sense to you but I have a $800 lower and a $300 upper. The barrel cost me $75. So if I want to take value away from any of the rifle components the cheaper one sure makes sense to me. Also I can engrave in my home shop.
 
"wholly unobstructed from plain view"

cmacclel said:
The trust name can be on the barrel, lower, or upper. It may not make sense to you but I have a $800 lower and a $300 upper. The barrel cost me $75. So if I want to take value away from any of the rifle components the cheaper one sure makes sense to me. Also I can engrave in my home shop.
Click to expand...

Barrels get shot out and need replacing .... Pretty sure it's basically illegal to re engrave and claim it's the same weapon the stamp was approved for.

If you want to have a 7" 10" 12" and a 14" upper , different calibers etc, you can just engrave the lower and put what ever you want on top as long as you keep one barrel that matches the info for the stamp.

Also since you need to record the serial number , and it's linked to that lower any way . Selling it down the road is going to be a sbr sale no matter what. I figure it would make selling that lower harder since it's quicker transfer for some one to sbr a lower they own can buying one .
 
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warwickben said:
Barrels get shot out and need replacing .... Pretty sure it's basically illegal to re engrave and claim it's the same weapon the stamp was approved for.

If you want to have a 7" 10" 12" and a 14" upper , different calibers etc, you can just engrave the lower and put what ever you want on top as long as you keep one barrel that matches the info for the stamp
Click to expand...

I'm not following you....... the "Serialized" lower is what is "Registered" in the ATF Database. If you where to replace a shot out barrel and had your trust name engraved on the replacement what would be the issue? Also to be legit even if you changed the barrel length you need to notify the ATF in writing. Many people just register the lower and have different uppers and don't care to notify the ATF but..............
 
"wholly unobstructed from plain view"

cmacclel said:
I'm not following you....... the "Serialized" lower is what is "Registered" in the ATF Database. If you where to replace a shot out barrel and had your trust name engraved on the replacement what would be the issue? Also to be legit even if you changed the barrel length you need to notify the ATF in writing. Many people just register the lower and have different uppers and don't care to notify the ATF but..............
Click to expand...

I messed up but I updated . Forgot you don't get a tax stamp code that needs engraving . So yeah re doing a trust name only on a barrel no big deal. But I belive there letters saying with a ar you can swap barrels but you need to be able to put it back to what the stamp says .

But you worrying about reselling it for loss cause of the engraving . I think isn't a big deal . Maybe trying to resell a sbr you'll probably lose more money vs the same lower not a sbr.

Think of it this way.
Me buying a sbr lower from you is going to take a lot longer to transfer then me buying a lower and submitting . I would just buy the same lower and efile .
Unless you have a crazy rare limited run lower that every one wants. Like a titanium ar lower with a donkey show engraving lol.
Not only that any time I shot the barrel out I would have to get one engraved .
Me personally .

In order of sbr guns I'd buy I'd stack them in this order .

I efile my own .
Buy some ones with the lower engraved .
Lower with a engraved upper
lower with a engraved barrel.
 
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warwickben said:
I messed up but I updated . Forgot you don't get a tax stamp code that needs engraving . So yeah re doing a trust name only on a barrel no big deal. But I belive there letters saying with a ar you can swap barrels but you need to be able to put it back to what the stamp says .

But you worrying about reselling it for loss cause of the engraving . I think isn't a big deal . Maybe trying to resell a sbr you'll probably lose more money vs the same lower not a sbr.

Think of it this way.
Me buying a sbr lower from you is going to take a lot longer to transfer then me buying a lower and submitting . I would just buy the same lower and efile .
Unless you have a crazy rare limited run lower that every one wants. Like a titanium at lower with a donkey show engraving lol.
Click to expand...

I have a Bushmaster Pre-Ban lower so I guess it's Kinda like a titanium at lower with a donkey show engraving lol.

- - - Updated - - -

This is what I did.

Trust-vi.jpg
 
"wholly unobstructed from plain view"

cmacclel said:
I have a Bushmaster Pre-Ban lower so I guess it's Kinda like a titanium at lower with a donkey show engraving lol.
Click to expand...

Low shelf or blocked sear ?
Aren't pre ban rifles really only valuable in the few ban states , then the rest of the states it's mainly colt fan boys willing to pay.

Engrave it on the bit of the pistol grip tang.
Think as a buyer. Would you want to pay some one every time you need a barrel replacement ?
 
warwickben said:
Low shelf or blocked sear ?
Aren't pre ban rifles really only valuable in the few ban states , then the rest of the states it's mainly colt fan boys willing to pay.

Engrave it on the bit of the pistol grip tang.
Think as a buyer. Would you want to pay some one every time you need a barrel replacement ?
Click to expand...

I have my own CNC Mill so to re-engrave a barrel would take me 10 minutes :) Yes Pre-Bans are only valuable in a few states but the prices have not seemed to drop at all. Sought after Pre-Ban lowered are still around $700. My lower is a Bushmaster so no sear block.
 
cmacclel said:
I have my own CNC Mill so to re-engrave a barrel would take me 10 minutes :) Yes Pre-Bans are only valuable in a few states but the prices have not seemed to drop at all. Sought after Pre-Ban lowered are still around $700. My lower is a Bushmaster so no sear block.
Click to expand...

That's awesome . Pm in bound lol.
I was thinking for resale tho, not every one can do it for free.
 
atilla said:
+1. snicker snicker.

cmacclel why'd you go with the pre-ban lower? did you just have it kicking around already or were you worried about the definition of "rifle" WRT the MA AWB?
Click to expand...


I tend to error on the caution side......:) I tried arguing the Rifle definition with 2 of my friends that are FFL's and they looked at me funny. I also already had the Pre-Ban lower.
 
cmacclel said:
I tend to error on the caution side......:) I tried arguing the Rifle definition with 2 of my friends that are FFL's and they looked at me funny. I also already had the Pre-Ban lower.
Click to expand...

eh nbd if you already had it. the funny thing is that all the people i know with FFLs agree with it not being a rifle once it's title II. 2/3 of them are/were FFL/SOT in MA.

then again there's no case law, i hope there never is, too. i never like seeing dudes jammed up over silly shit like that in MA.
 
warwickben said:
Low shelf or blocked sear ?
Aren't pre ban rifles really only valuable in the few ban states , then the rest of the states it's mainly colt fan boys willing to pay.

Engrave it on the bit of the pistol grip tang.
Think as a buyer. Would you want to pay some one every time you need a barrel replacement ?
Click to expand...
as long as just one state recognizes preban like CT does, then the value is there on gunbroker. my colt sporter hbar lower is probably worth $800 to $1000.
 
cmacclel said:
The trust name can be on the barrel, lower, or upper. It may not make sense to you but I have a $800 lower and a $300 upper. The barrel cost me $75. So if I want to take value away from any of the rifle components the cheaper one sure makes sense to me. Also I can engrave in my home shop.
Click to expand...
My understanding is that if you want to put it on the barrel then you will also have to add the serial number, model, etc. which is required. Plus why would you do that if you ever wanted to swap out the barrel you cannot and you couldn't.
 

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