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.308 test of CFE223 vs TAC - 168gr ELD Hornady

paul73

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So, harvard today was little to no fun, all ranges are covered with solid ice and when it started to melt i was barely able to drive out in my p-car. so did not do any work at 300yds, only ran those load tests of my .308 at a 100yds.

it is a rather mediocre barrel - an 18" wilson combat fluted, but, i got to say - results kinda on par with what i saw in .223. projectile used was hornady 168gr ELD match.
nothing of cfe223 looks acceptable at all - whole upper raw is cfe223. surprising results - like groups 6 and 7 with good SD but abysmal spreads. go figure.

second raw 9 to 13 are TAC loads. there is seems to be more usable groups - like 9 and 13, perhaps. it felt better when speed was getting around 2630fps. good thing is that TAC was dropping pretty well with minimal issues from my dillon powder measure, so, it will be for now my .308 load - a 44gr TAC, and i will try to play around it a bit to see if minor adjustments would improve anything.

group 15 was a test of how my precision 6.5CM loads for bergara would fire from my 6.5CM AR10 - 20" aero precision barrel. as it can be seen - pretty adequate.
it was 5 rounds and i flinched bad on a last one, but before i did shoot more into blank space under targets row to adjust the scope and it did group in a same way as those 4 inside the target - pretty decent. much more pleasurable to shoot than .308. i mostly only wanted to set the scope on AR to match new loads, and it worked out just fine. speed comparison - 2660fps out of AR10 20", 2800fps out of 24" bergara.


IMG-1129.jpg

here below is a small re-test of how merely a 0.1gr difference of the powder drop affects the .223 groupings - varget, 25.3, 25.1, 25.2 loads, on a same 69gr SMK. sets of 10.
it was not my best shooting day, so i do not know how much of the spread are loads and how much me, but it is indicative enough for what it is. with proper concentration i was getting all 10 rounds inside of the 1" circle there. wind was 7mph today with gusts to 12 - at 100yds should not been much of an effect from that.
i usually load 25.1 - 25gr and scope is set for that load, as it can be seen.
IMG-1131.jpg

PS. Also, to my next surprise - the target there is not a 1" circle, the inner white area diameter is 15mm, from thick black line edges. i was pretty sure it was supposed to be an inch but it is smaller. outside edge of thick line is 7/8". may be my printer is scaling the target. hmm.
 
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gotta say i am rather confusingly surprised with CFE223 as i do not seem to be able to find any combination with it to work ok in any loads i tried so far.
i have 4 1lb cans of it - 3 unopened, so, if anybody loves/needs it - let me know.
here how it grouped for me in 24.3gr - 24.8gr -25.4gr -25.9gr loads for .223. pretty odd stuff, go figure

1644433482536.png
 
Paul how are you doing your load development? I’ve found that seating depth can have more affect on groups than charge weight.

As your 223 load, IMO it looks like your right on the edge of a node and that small change in charge weight your seeing a shift in impact. I’d test above and below what you have there and compare, you might find it more forgiving slightly lower or higher. Obviously make sure to watch for pressure.

Ultimately I try to find a range of charge weights in which POI does not shift than I will load in middle and test seating depths to fine tune it.

If you haven’t tried imr4064 in the 308 I would recommend it as I’ve had very good luck with it and usually pretty easy to find.

PS: Varget blows. I’d be more than willing to help you out and trade you for something better. 😉
 
Paul how are you doing your load development? I’ve found that seating depth can have more affect on groups than charge weight.

As your 223 load, IMO it looks like your right on the edge of a node and that small change in charge weight your seeing a shift in impact. I’d test above and below what you have there and compare, you might find it more forgiving slightly lower or higher. Obviously make sure to watch for pressure.

Ultimately I try to find a range of charge weights in which POI does not shift than I will load in middle and test seating depths to fine tune it.

If you haven’t tried imr4064 in the 308 I would recommend it as I’ve had very good luck with it and usually pretty easy to find.

PS: Varget blows. I’d be more than willing to help you out and trade you for something better. 😉
.223 is settled now, 69gr smk sits there at c.o.l. 2.260" - i shoot is from a gas rifle so i am restricted by the magazine. sitting it deeper i tested as well, it did not produce good results. i went over all that earlier. it is stable at 24.9-25-25.1. going above that does not help, and that was the test.

this .308 i only started dealing with. stock factory match loads from cmp did not group too well with it neither. so i will see what will work.

i like varget just fine for .223 - as i went there over multiple choices and it was a most stable one, and it makes it simpler to keep list of powders shorter, i want to see what i gonna get from the stock i already have, before getting anything else. frankly i just want to use up the TAC on something it may actually be usable for, as it was probably a mistake to buy it to begin with. i only got it out of curiosity. if i can get a workable load for .308 with varget it would be good, in combination with TAC, as i do not see myself shooting a lot of .308, ever.

it is really only the .223 and 6.5CM for now and will stay like that.
 
A lot of guys run Tac in 223 as well maybe would make good plinking round. I have no personal experience with it.
 
Are you dropping Varget with the Dillon and if so how consistent is your drop? Ive read a lot of guys saying its not very consistent but haven't tried it yet but it would definitely speed my 223 loads up as im weighting them all right now than charging on the 550.
 
Are you dropping Varget with the Dillon and if so how consistent is your drop? Ive read a lot of guys saying its not very consistent but haven't tried it yet but it would definitely speed my 223 loads up as im weighting them all right now than charging on the 550.
Upgraded Dillon measure with micrometer and tin insert.
I run now precision rifle varget alternative as it got sticks a tad shorter than varget and random checks in batch load set for 25gr were showing 0.1gr deviation that I find acceptable.
Original varget I will try again soon. It was doing mostly same, but I will retest. I did not have big problems with it and accuracy and SD was excellent in .223. I have no need to alter that load.
.308 I will play with more.
Plus, a 0.1 or 0.2gr drop deviation on a 44gr charge is not a same thing as on a 25gr drop.

As none of common caliber powders are easy to get now - the consolidated approach helps.
 
Are you dropping Varget with the Dillon and if so how consistent is your drop? Ive read a lot of guys saying its not very consistent but haven't tried it yet but it would definitely speed my 223 loads up as im weighting them all right now than charging on the 550.
I loaded 100 .308 with varget for a next test, measured each load.
It is dropping worse than precision rifle - in some volumes it was more or less stable - a 44gr could drop as 44.1 or 43.9 but some times I had overthrown ones up to .5gr, often enough at .3gr+.
Again, it is probably not so critical at a 43-45gr total charge to have a .3gr deviation, but, it is something to watch out for.
 
I loaded 100 .308 with varget for a next test, measured each load.
It is dropping worse than precision rifle - in some volumes it was more or less stable - a 44gr could drop as 44.1 or 43.9 but some times I had overthrown ones up to .5gr, often enough at .3gr+.
Again, it is probably not so critical at a 43-45gr total charge to have a .3gr deviation, but, it is something to watch out for.
This is where finding that node/range with the least amount of POI shift comes in handy .
 
so, i did a last one of .308 meqsurbating sessions today, burned a ton of varget on those rounds, only to see no principal improvement over the results with TAC.
also tired the 175gr SMK projectile - it did not really show anything different/better groups wise. the high load with 175gr was totally abysmal - target 26.

3 groups of 6..5CM in 41.7, 41.8 and 41.9 loads were dome to see if a typical batch load charge diff may alter groups in any significant way - it is not, and the 41.8 ended up with a respectful SD of 4. a nice result based on a nicely processed brass. :)

groups 16-17 with varget loads at 2575-2580 fps seem to be best, but, meh. i will go with TAC to load those .308 shells i got, and will keep it at that, 43.5-44gr TAC in post above, targets 12-13, speed 2613-2646, will do. as i need to use up that TAC on something anyway.

varget_308.jpg
 
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I dont know what your intentions are but if your looking to just punch holes out to 200 Might try a lower velocity.
I run alot of 308 and 30-06 at refuced velocity for 100-200 yard paper pinching.
2200 fps or so
Valid point, but I wanted to see how barrel will perform with proper loads set for max longest flat shooting. May be I will use it to hunt someday.
Overall this particular Wilson barrel does not seem to have any sweet points so far. :)
I can try a 168gr SMK bullets also but not sure it will have any revelations.
I will probably go with that 44gr TAC load, it seemed to be ok.
 
I dont know what your intentions are but if your looking to just punch holes out to 200 Might try a lower velocity.
I run alot of 308 and 30-06 at refuced velocity for 100-200 yard paper pinching.
2200 fps or so
My favorite, and one of my most accurate, 308 loads are reduced. I think they are around 2550 ish.
 
My favorite, and one of my most accurate, 308 loads are reduced. I think they are around 2550 ish.
I started those tests with reduced 2500 up to 2650. Did not seem to make any diff.

From other look the 44.3 varget load target 16 is actually decent. They all are 10 rounds each, it seems that one was sub moa
 
I started those tests with reduced 2500 up to 2650. Did not seem to make any diff.

From other look the 44.3 varget load target 16 is actually decent. They all are 10 rounds each, it seems that one was sub moa
Not sure if you want to try these, but I found these to work really well, and they tolerate a good jump.

 
Not sure if you want to try these, but I found these to work really well, and they tolerate a good jump.

The eld bullet I use is a same exact a-max but newer model - same design but the tip is made from material that does not melt from overheat. I do not think that 2600 would melt a-max but elds I got were at same price with them.


I also think to try this one, but, dunno if it’s worth the time. 175gr one did not do too good.

 
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Valid point, but I wanted to see how barrel will perform with proper loads set for max longest flat shooting. May be I will use it to hunt someday.
Overall this particular Wilson barrel does not seem to have any sweet points so far. :)
I can try a 168gr SMK bullets also but not sure it will have any revelations.
I will probably go with that 44gr TAC load, it seemed to be ok.
maybe try some 155s ?
 
My favorite, and one of my most accurate, 308 loads are reduced. I think they are around 2550 ish.
2550ish to me thats not reduced. Since I play at 200 yards 99% of the time alot of my reduced loads are 1000-1600 fps, lol
Also mention Im not chasing sub moa just 200 yard iron sight shooting so im happy under 3 moa!

I really dont have many rifles cabable of sub moa, MOA sure . My scoped M1a with 175gn Sierra at a touch over 2600 fps shot great out of my M1a but honestly it just sounder hard on the action so I run 155s at 2500 for iron sights. Ditch the scope after I could prove to my self the rifle and I could shoot MOA
 
The eld bullet I use is a same exact a-max but newer model - same design but the tip is made from material that does not melt from overheat. I do not think that 2600 would melt a-max but elds I got were at same price with them.


I also think to try this one, but, dunno if it’s worth the time. 175gr one did not do too good.

Sounds like the a max might become obsolete soon. That blows, I have one gun that shoots those amazingly well.

Some rifles just tend to be picky. I have one that shoots 168 great, one that shoots 178 better. Same model action, trued by the same smith. I hate load development. As soon as I find something that I think shoots decent enough, I stop now.
 
2550ish to me thats not reduced. Since I play at 200 yards 99% of the time alot of my reduced loads are 1000-1600 fps, lol
Also mention Im not chasing sub moa just 200 yard iron sight shooting so im happy under 3 moa!

I really dont have many rifles cabable of sub moa, MOA sure . My scoped M1a with 175gn Sierra at a touch over 2600 fps shot great out of my M1a but honestly it just sounder hard on the action so I run 155s at 2500 for iron sights. Ditch the scope after I could prove to my self the rifle and I could shoot MOA
I haven't loaded 308 in a long time. You are going to make me check my book later tonight. The more I think about it, it may be closer to 2450-2500 area. I know it's the lower charge of 4064 that I use for the range. While I am digging through my library, I'll check what I get using 2000MR, I can really get some speed with that powder. That's a good powder when you are trying to get the most out of a 308.
 
I haven't loaded 308 in a long time. You are going to make me check my book later tonight. The more I think about it, it may be closer to 2450-2500 area. I know it's the lower charge of 4064 that I use for the range. While I am digging through my library, I'll check what I get using 2000MR, I can really get some speed with that powder. That's a good powder when you are trying to get the most out of a 308.
308 I have been loading light 135 gr bullet 2200 ish fps. I do have one Load thats really light. 135 gn Bergers 15 grains TrailBoss 1650fps out of the 308 Mauser 98k . I need to try these in something easier to shoot with. Those mauser sights suck. I have shot several groups down to moa zone but honestly those days with good eyes and good light at the range are rare for me now.
 
308 I have been loading light 135 gr bullet 2200 ish fps. I do have one Load thats really light. 135 gn Bergers 15 grains TrailBoss 1650fps out of the 308 Mauser 98k . I need to try these in something easier to shoot with. Those mauser sights suck. I have shot several groups down to moa zone but honestly those days with good eyes and good light at the range are rare for me now.
Why would you ever want 135gr in a .308?
Other than for a target practice, of course. Does not look like a good choice for a caliber, dunno, I did not even think of using anything lighter than 168gr there.
 
Why would you ever want 135gr in a .308?
Other than for a target practice, of course. Does not look like a good choice for a caliber, dunno, I did not even think of using anything lighter than 168gr there.
I've loaded 130 gr in the win mag. Very nice trace left behind, looks like the wake from a boat.
 
308 I have been loading light 135 gr bullet 2200 ish fps. I do have one Load thats really light. 135 gn Bergers 15 grains TrailBoss 1650fps out of the 308 Mauser 98k . I need to try these in something easier to shoot with. Those mauser sights suck. I have shot several groups down to moa zone but honestly those days with good eyes and good light at the range are rare for me now.
I do like Berger products, very consistent. Sounds like something I'd like to try.

I had zero luck on the other end with 208gr. Probably needed a longer barrel.
 
Why would you ever want 135gr in a .308?
Other than for a target practice, of course. Does not look like a good choice for a caliber, dunno, I did not even think of using anything lighter than 168gr there.
I use 110s also , not to mention cast bullets.
 
I do like Berger products, very consistent. Sounds like something I'd like to try.

I had zero luck on the other end with 208gr. Probably needed a longer barrel.
The berger 135s can be had for under 20 cents each . So for 200 yard target fun they are great. If you really want to you can crank them up a bit for varmint work?

You can probably get those 135s into the low 3000s?

I have fun with 110 gn pills also .
 
The berger 135s can be had for under 20 cents each . So for 200 yard target fun they are great. If you really want to you can crank them up a bit for varmint work?

You can probably get those 135s into the low 3000s?

I have fun with 110 gn pills also .
Yes, around 3200-3300. I could probably go a little higher, but they are a blast right now, no need to go higher. Varmits definitely don't care for them....
 
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