.500 S&W Double-tap - some language NSFW

[ephemeratta]

Not quite what anyone had in mind at that moment.

 

[RichM]

SCARY! That second shot went high & to her side!

 

[Supermoto]

I saw a guy do that at the range, the 2nd one almost went under his chin.

 

[wolf223]

i'd hit it.

 

[dustindu4]

One day I was at an indoor rental range and watched a guy do the same thing with that gun he rented. The second round went into the building's ac unit, and this was in the middle of summer. There was just a small refrigerant leak

 

[Kicker96FS]

i'd hit it.

I think everyone on the line wanted too.

 

[terraformer]

On those monster revolvers you need to really squeeze the trigger hard because if you don't, as the recoil from the first shot drives the gun backwards, the limp trigger finger will allow the trigger to reset. As the gun comes back forward, the trigger gets squeezed again. The DA triggers on those newer revolvers are really nice, but easy to set off. I have done it with both .44 and .500 revolvers as I tend to have a light trigger pull and light grip (by design). Very disconcerting.

 

[tele_mark]

She didn't even flinch!

 

[Kicker96FS]

She didn't even flinch!

She didn't have time too!

 

[EddieCoyle]

I've seen it happen multiple times.

As a result, I now put one round in for newbies.

 

[Speedway]

i'd hit it.

Beat me to it!

 

[Chris]

Yep, this 'issue' is well documented and is ALWAYS an issue with the shooter, not the gun. The two contributing factors are:

A) Not gripping the pistol tight enough to reduce compression as much as possible

and/or

B) exhibiting poor trigger discipline by not squeezing all the way through the Follow Through.

Both of these problems reflect back directly to basic marksmanship training.

I tend to see the trigger discipline issues in those that tend to shoot semi-autos mostly. Shooting quickly tends to gloss over the Follow Through. Far too often shooters will increase their speed beyond the point they can properly complete the proper steps (especially Sight Alignment and Sight Picture) before yanking the bang switch again. It makes all the difference between a shooter that can shoot quickly and one that can pull the trigger quickly. Remember, you don't have to release the trigger until you sights are practically on target. During your practice, make a pointed decision to not release the trigger until your sights are beginning to settle. First, you'll be getting your attention back to the sights where they belong because you need to SEE the proper condition to release the trigger. Second, you'll notice that not only are you really not shooting much slower, but your accuracy improves greatly. You'll also be reinforcing the principles of the Follow Through which directly translate to all other shooting disciplines.

One further note on why proper trigger discipline is critical - When a firearm recoils to the point of going out of control, the reaction of the shooter (especially a newer one) is to grip harder to fight the action. That action virtually guarantees that the shooter's trigger finger will also tighten. Go ahead, try it - see if you can clench your grip tighter and not move your trigger finger. You don't need a gun, just pick up a cup with your trigger finger held off and then grip the cup tighter with zero motion to your index finger. Most people will not be able to do it. If you have been 'training' to release the trigger on break, the combination of the two actions noted above will in effect pull the trigger a second time. Or, in the case of a recent full-auto accident, likely to result in the inability to let go.

BTW, that guy beyond the shooter with the camera should have been asked to move behind the firing line. He almost learned the hard way.

Her grip was also not as high as it could have been. I don't know if her hands simply don't permit a higher grip or not, but that is another thing that might have reduced the recoil.

Oh yea, and loading up the revolver with every chamber filled for beginners is not the best idea. As with Jim, I usually start with just one and its usually a pretty light load at that.

 

[Supermoto]

I tend to see the trigger discipline issues in those that tend to shoot semi-autos mostly. Shooting quickly tends to gloss over the Follow Through. Far too often shooters will increase their speed beyond the point they can properly complete the proper steps (especially Sight Alignment and Sight Picture) before yanking the bang switch again. It makes all the difference between a shooter that can shoot quickly and one that can pull the trigger quickly. Remember, you don't have to release the trigger until you sights are practically on target. During your practice, make a pointed decision to not release the trigger until your sights are beginning to settle. First, you'll be getting your attention back to the sights where they belong because you need to SEE the proper condition to release the trigger. Second, you'll notice that not only are you really not shooting much slower, but your accuracy improves greatly. You'll also be reinforcing the principles of the Follow Through which directly translate to all other shooting disciplines.
.

I disagree, especially with revolvers, that trigger needs to be in constant motion to shoot quickly and accurately. As soon as that trigger breaks, it is reset and prepped for the next shot. Pinning the trigger really slows you down. Follow through is not an issue if you call your shots

 

[Chris]

Follow through is not an issue if you call your shots

Agreed on this point. Do you really think that woman called her shots?

A shooter can speed up the reset once that is their limiting factor. Until then, it is best to get the basics right than developing a bad habit of short stroking the trigger. It is MUCH easier to learn to speed up the reset than it is to break the bad habit of short stroking. (not to mention the safety concerns as exhibited in the video.) On top of this, keeping the shooter focused on the sights is VITAL when they are learning to shoot. I don't care what kind of fancy techniques you have read or been told will make you faster - if you are not focused on the sights for the shot, you will not be as accurate as you can be. By making the shooter focus on the sights as part of the Follow Through as a requirement to releasing the trigger, you actually improve the follow through and all the other basics it is intended to reinforce.

Add to this that most novice shooters are going to be using smaller calibers where the hazards of improper techniques do not result in dramatic failures and coaching drills needed to instill those basics become much harder to see and correct. Invariably, once novice shooters start to exaggerate the Follow Through, their other issues tend to clear up.

Please keep in mind the majority of the people exposed to "Internet advice" are not going to be proficient and well skilled shooters. To advocate advanced techniques in a thread that is founded on an error rooted in bad basic habits is not going to help anyone.

I will try in future advice to make a point to state when I am referring to novice or advanced techniques. It is absolutely critical that a shooter drill the basics until they become habit before modifying them to 'improve' certain desired aspects. Otherwise, bad habits will be developed and the video above will continue to be repeated.

 

[ShadeWPI]

I've seen it happen multiple times.

As a result, I now put one round in for newbies.

I don't use as hot loads in my 500 as EC does, but I load every other chamber in my 500 when someone shoots it for the first time specifically to prevent this. Recoil double tapping a .500 S&W is not uncommon and I disagree that it's a sign of poor marksmanship skills or trigger discipline. Typically what happens is the recoil forces the hand back faster than the trigger finger, releasing the trigger and resetting the firearm. The user continues to pull the trigger rearward and fires a second shot.
By loading every other round, if the user does double-tap, they drop the hammer on an empty chamber.

 

[Supermoto]

Agreed on this point. Do you really think that woman called her shots?

A shooter can speed up the reset once that is their limiting factor. Until then, it is best to get the basics right than developing a bad habit of short stroking the trigger. It is MUCH easier to learn to speed up the reset than it is to break the bad habit of short stroking. (not to mention the safety concerns as exhibited in the video.) On top of this, keeping the shooter focused on the sights is VITAL when they are learning to shoot. I don't care what kind of fancy techniques you have read or been told will make you faster - if you are not focused on the sights for the shot, you will not be as accurate as you can be. By making the shooter focus on the sights as part of the Follow Through as a requirement to releasing the trigger, you actually improve the follow through and all the other basics it is intended to reinforce.

Add to this that most novice shooters are going to be using smaller calibers where the hazards of improper techniques do not result in dramatic failures and coaching drills needed to instill those basics become much harder to see and correct. Invariably, once novice shooters start to exaggerate the Follow Through, their other issues tend to clear up.

Please keep in mind the majority of the people exposed to "Internet advice" are not going to be proficient and well skilled shooters. To advocate advanced techniques in a thread that is founded on an error rooted in bad basic habits is not going to help anyone.

I will try in future advice to make a point to state when I am referring to novice or advanced techniques. It is absolutely critical that a shooter drill the basics until they become habit before modifying them to 'improve' certain desired aspects. Otherwise, bad habits will be developed and the video above will continue to be repeated.

The gun doubled because of weak grip and the gun bouncing, nothing to do with follow thru or calling shots.

The shooter should be focused on the sights the entire time. Tracking your sights and calling shots is absolutely essential and should be taught from the very beginning. Trigger pinning has nothing to do with either and connecting the 2 causes issues later, such as trigger freeze. It is a crutch used to help shooter, but develops a bad habit that needs to be broken later, It a quick way to get results when the instructor is not willing to spend the time on the 2 fundamental, sight alignment and calling your shot. nothing else matters.

It is not an advanced technique. it is the correct technique.

 

[terraformer]

Yep, this 'issue' is well documented and is ALWAYS an issue with the shooter, not the gun. The two contributing factors are:

A) Not gripping the pistol tight enough to reduce compression as much as possible

and/or

B) exhibiting poor trigger discipline by not squeezing all the way through the Follow Through.

Both of these problems reflect back directly to basic marksmanship training.

Negative on both points. If you shoot .357 mag with no problems and never have double taps, why should one grip that .357 mag tighter. If gripping any gun with a death grip is so important, I can squeeze the living crap out of it. It will make my shots go all over the place, but I can do it. But it is also unnecessary as I have total control over most revolvers otherwise. It only becomes necessary to grip harder when dealing with beasts like the .500. So it's not a sign of general bad practice, only bad practice for large caliber revolvers. If you have never shot them, or never had any one teach/warn you about them, then it takes time to figure it out via trial and error. So the real message here is these hand cannons are a different breed and for these you MUST grip harder than you normally would.

And with B, same thing. Why pull the trigger all the way through if you don't need that to make it go bang. Many of my guns the trigger hits the stop soon after the break. I have a King Cobra that breaks with a gentle breeze and then hits the stop a hair later. If I tried to "follow through", shots would be all over the place because all I would be doing it transferring energy into the frame. I don't need to death grip that and if I did, it would also negate the benefit of the trigger job it has.

 

[Dench]

I still have a mean flinch when I shoot .500's...

 

[terraformer]

I still have a mean flinch when I shoot .500's...

You flinch shooting .22s....

 

[Dench]

You flinch shooting .22s....

Heh, I bet I did 2 years ago. I've worked on my flinch a lot. I don't have it anymore that interferes with my level of shooting for my 92FS, G27,32,34.
I don't shoot 500's often (maybe like 4 rounds per year max) so everytime I do its like the 1st time all over again..

 

[EddieCoyle]

She did it wrong too.

It looks like she tried to lock her arms. As a result, the recoil practically dislocated her wrists.

You have to lock your wrists and let your arms raise up to absorb the recoil.

It's not ideal for follow-up shots, but you shouldn't need a follow-up shot with a .500. On anything.

 

[Chris]

nothing to do with follow thru or calling shots.

I still disagree with this. Proper follow through is a contributing factor. I'll have to look and see if I still have the high speed video that S&W did back in 2006 when they looked into this issue. It was very interesting in how much compression there is in the hand. But more telling was the demonstration that only if the trigger finger is moved forward was it possible to get a reset.* A proper follow through would eliminate this. I'm talking about forward motion of the finger as the bullet is leaving the barrel, before muzzle rise begins and compression is nearing maximum.

(*This assumes a proper grip - which I've already mentioned is a contributing factor)

But I would like to discuss the rest of your response. I personally have not seen any detrimental effects of exaggerated follow through and am really interested in your experience with it because I have used it successfully to ensure that the fundamentals are adhered to for 10 years now. One of the reasons our Basic Pistol course is 18 hours over 6 nights is specifically to be able to give the time to drilling the fundamentals in a manner that the student and instructor can focus on them in multiple shooting sessions and reinforce the good habits while eliminating the bad ones. And it isn't that I don't get to see them progress as we shoot the NRA Gallery Rapid Fire stage as part of the course as a means to improve their rhythm and follow-up shots. So, forgive me if I'm confused by your experience in this. I'm very interested in hearing what you've experienced.

It is not an advanced technique. it is the correct technique.

Eliminating a follow through pause in the trigger pull is advanced if you are advocating that the "trigger needs to be in constant motion". If we accept the definition of follow through as:

Follow Through is the ability to continue to employ, through and after the shot release, all the factors that the shooter was endeavoring to employ before and during the shot. - internationally respected shooting coach Tibor Gonczol

You can not be moving your trigger finger forward while the shot is essentially underway. Yes, Calling the Shot is a very good indicator that the follow through was done sufficiently. However, for any shooter that has had their 500 double, I seriously doubt that shooter called even their initial shot. By your own admission, this would indicate that they did not employ proper follow through.

BTW: if you want to see some REALLY advanced study on the mechanics of firing the shot, look at the efforts that are employed in Free Pistol. For example, they not only go to the extreme of developing highly ergonomic grips, but training to maintain constant finger pressures at all times on those grips. This is far beyond what most shooters would ever need, but the basics of their rationality do apply and highlight the need for developing good consistent basic fundamentals. An efficient rhythm from shot to shot has its basis in an efficient stance and grip - the shooter that masters this will be quicker naturally. In a sport where conservation of motion is almost a mantra, the follow through pause of the trigger squeeze is highly valued as an important part of the best form.

 

[Chris]

If gripping any gun with a death grip is so important

Who said "Death Grip"? I said "Tight enough to reduce Compression as much as possible." If you read that as "Death Grip", then you misread the intent. The intent was to keep the gun from having free motion in the hands.

And with B, same thing. Why pull the trigger all the way through if you don't need that to make it go bang. Many of my guns the trigger hits the stop soon after the break. I have a King Cobra that breaks with a gentle breeze and then hits the stop a hair later. If I tried to "follow through", shots would be all over the place because all I would be doing it transferring energy into the frame. I don't need to death grip that and if I did, it would also negate the benefit of the trigger job it has.

If all you need to do is pull with a gentle breeze, why the hell does it suddenly become a "Death Grip" because the proper follow through requires you to maintain the gentle breeze?

 

[Mike-Mike]

I've seen it happen multiple times.

As a result, I now put one round in for newbies.

You told me about this, I only half believed you, until I saw this.

 

[Supermoto]

You can not be moving your trigger finger forward while the shot is essentially underway. Yes, Calling the Shot is a very good indicator that the follow through was done sufficiently.

This is where we have different beliefs. Follow through has nothing to do with calling shots. Call shots starts and ends with sight lift, anything done after the sights have lifted and the bullet has left the barrel will have no effect on POI. Pinning the trigger will not influence accuracy as the accuracy of the shot has already been determined

Chris, I think it would be interesting to shoot together and talk about or different technique and styles. The issue I see are when shooters take these basic skills and try to apply them to more advanced shooting. Trigger pinning, slow reset, staging triggers, become bad habits that take a long time to fix

 

[Titan]

At the range at Smith & Wesson in Springfield, the RSO only loads a single round for the first shot of their rental, and then loads every other chamber.

They point out the risk of this effect to renters, so they must have seen it a lot before implementing changes to counteract it.

 

[Chris]

I'd like to withdraw from this discussion for today. In reading back some of the stuff, although I know what I meant, I can see where some might not understand what I was trying to convey.

I'll leave my excuse for not being as clear as possible to having only 4 real hours of sleep since Saturday night. (^_^)

Supermoto, I'd love to spend pow-wow time with other instructors. There is so much wealth in the experiences we have that its a shame that we don't share tips and tricks more readily.

To terraformer and anyone else I came across as an ass, I'm sorry.

 

[eisenhow]

Heh, I bet I did 2 years ago. I've worked on my flinch a lot. I don't have it anymore that interferes with my level of shooting for my 92FS, G27,32,34.
I don't shoot 500's often (maybe like 4 rounds per year max) so everytime I do its like the 1st time all over again..

So when will we see Dench at an IDPA match?

 

[terraformer]

I'd like to withdraw from this discussion for today. In reading back some of the stuff, although I know what I meant, I can see where some might not understand what I was trying to convey.

I'll leave my excuse for not being as clear as possible to having only 4 real hours of sleep since Saturday night. (^_^)

Supermoto, I'd love to spend pow-wow time with other instructors. There is so much wealth in the experiences we have that its a shame that we don't share tips and tricks more readily.

To terraformer and anyone else I came across as an ass, I'm sorry.

It's all good, no worries. I didn't have the time to respond earlier linking what I read to illustrate why I thought what I did about your posts. Your comments came across as general criticisms and I think they needed to be scoped to high power hand cannons. With smaller calibers other techniques are still valid approaches to good marksmanship.

 

[jar]

I've had this argument with Supermoto before. I see where he's coming from, and seeing him shoot, he clearly knows what he's talking about. I think it's worthwhile to have a separate thread about teaching pistol technique. As a new instructor, I think I have a lot to learn.

I initially learned all the traditional ways, weaver, push pull, surprise break, follow through then reset, etc. In working on my competition shooting, I've discarded some of these. Weaver and push/pull I think it outdated and I teach thumbs forward modern iso from the start, but I think surprise break and reset have their place as a stepping stone. What does everyone else think?

Supermoto, your shooting skill speaks for itself, but I'm curious about the teaching you've done. What has been your experience taking people from first shots toward your level of skill?