Advice on a LH CZ 452 .22 for biathlon - aperture sights, Lux vs. American

[narthex]

Hello all - this is my first post. I'm in Boston, and I've got a brand-new Mass. FID card burning a hole in my pocket, as I've caught the summer biathlon bug pretty bad. I race at Pemi F/G in NH and HSC in Mass.

I'd like to get a rifle for summer biathlons. A bolt-action .22 will do for the competitions, but I'm left-handed and left-eye dominant, so if I'm buying the rifle I want to buy one with a left-hand bolt. This narrows my options considerably; so far as I know the only new LH bolt-action .22s (excluding Anschutz and Izhmash) right now are the Savage Mk2 BTVLSS and the CZ 452 American. I'd love an LH Izhmash, but due to import restrictions they are thin on the ground. I'm not ready to shell out for the Anschutz quite yet - in a couple of years if I've stuck with biathlon I will get it.

Based on this: http://www.portercalls.com/savage_mark_ii_btvlss__22lr.htm and this: http://www.portercalls.com/cz_452_american_left_hand.htm it seems the CZ 452 is the better choice.

Here's where I will look like the total firearms newb I am - biathlon requires aperture sights, so would it be possible to get aperture sights onto the CZ 452? How would I go about doing that/who would I see?

As a last variable, there's a post over on rimfire central about putting aperture sights on the LH CZ 452 - http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=381202 - but I think it's a CZ 452 Lux and not American, and the Lux comes with iron sights. Do the iron sights make it easier to convert to aperture sights with a front globe? Would it be better for that reason to hunt around for an LH Lux than to go with the LH American?

 

[lupis42]

Yes - the Lux has a front sight already, and I believe CZ sells a Lyman peep rear. The American will require some modification to get a front sight.

 

[mac1911]

Getting apwrture style sights to fit most guns is generally not hard. It depends on the sights you want to put on and what is needed for install.
I have been outfitting several 22s with aperture sights. I will give you some links and ideas http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?PHPSESSID=e39cf6b3b71905983e8b4faba4a0d04e&topic=78561.0

The BRNO sights are suposed to be a easy fit for the CZ rifles

The savage will be easier to mount sights to LH model will require a little thought.

 

[highlander]

Have you looked at the Browning T bolt,it comes in a left handed version and is a straight pull bolt action which I think would give you a speed advantage as opposed to a typical turn bolt.

 

[narthex]

Thanks for your replies, folks!

mac1911 - thank you for the link.

highlander - I have heard of the T bolt but was under the impression it's not being made in LH any more? It sure looks faster. I will look into it, thank you.

 

[Stape]

Good luck finding a 452 Lux in LH. I'm a lefty as well and really wanted the 452 Lux. Impossible to find as they have been discontinued. I put in a notice at buds online to email me when and if one became available and one did, some 1 1/2yrs later. At the time I had just bought some other rifles so my fun money was low. I kick myself for at least not putting it on layaway.

Just to be clear we're talking about the same rifle, the one I was looking at had the European stock, hooded front sight, and tapered schnabel forend?

 

[Varmint]

Would the 455 work, that you could just order.

 

[mac1911]

Thanks for your replies, folks!

mac1911 - thank you for the link.

highlander - I have heard of the T bolt but was under the impression it's not being made in LH any more? It sure looks faster. I will look into it, thank you.

I don't know the requirements of biathlon shooting. A decent entry Anschutz 1903 is about 1k ish ?
Few others
http://www.gunbroker.com/item/574051924

Then of course you need sights.
Something like this...as long as it has a machined in rail all the way to the rear this set up would work.
You need a mount for the front. If the barrel is dove tailed you just by the dove tailed mount or a one piece globe sight.
Sight set
http://www.champchoice.com/store/Main.aspx?p=ItemDetailOptions&item=000934

Or if you or you have a decent gun Smith you can DT receiver to mount something like this.
http://www.champchoice.com/store/Main.aspx?p=ItemDetailOptions&item=3902050
Williams makes a simular sight to the lyman. Although you can flip the Williams around and mount it lefty.
Here are some bases for sights for ideas.
http://www.champchoice.com/store/Main.aspx?p=CategoryBody&c=OPSB
Looking at the savage LH one of the top mount sight sets might be your best option or find a biathlon heavy web site and search the classifieds.

I have mounted aperture style sights on several of my 22s and needed to get bases and Drill and tap most of them.
So far gunsmith with in a reasonable distance where of little help.

 

[franktc]

I have a 455 American. The comb on the stock will put your eye right where you want it for a scope but is too high for iron sights to be comfortable (at least for me). The lux stock is designed for the iron sights that ship with the rifle. Having said that, aftermarket stocks are abundant and reasonable for the CZ action. I would focus on finding the left hand action.

 

[TripleP]

If you go Savage BVTLSS, and you want biathlon sights (for possible winter use) email Eastern Sierra Armory for their sight kit and finish it with the Anschutz 6827 biathlon rear sight and Williams front sight. He is selling biathlon stocks for the Savage again, although you won't get one before summer is over. Apachee Trigger, a bunch of 5 rnd mags and you are set.

 

[mac1911]

I sent him a PM for the ESA stocks I was not aware he had sight sets. I have considered seeing if he could make a stock for my daughters savage rascal. she will out grow that plastic stock soon and the rifle shoots very well.

 

[narthex]

Good luck finding a 452 Lux in LH. I'm a lefty as well and really wanted the 452 Lux. Impossible to find as they have been discontinued. I put in a notice at buds online to email me when and if one became available and one did, some 1 1/2yrs later. At the time I had just bought some other rifles so my fun money was low. I kick myself for at least not putting it on layaway.

Just to be clear we're talking about the same rifle, the one I was looking at had the European stock, hooded front sight, and tapered schnabel forend?

Unfortunately I am very new to firearms, so I'm not certain we are talking about the same rifle.

Would the 455 work, that you could just order.

They don't make a 455 in LH yet...

I don't know the requirements of biathlon shooting. A decent entry Anschutz 1903 is about 1k ish ?
Few others
http://www.gunbroker.com/item/574051924

Then of course you need sights.
Something like this...as long as it has a machined in rail all the way to the rear this set up would work.
You need a mount for the front. If the barrel is dove tailed you just by the dove tailed mount or a one piece globe sight.
Sight set
http://www.champchoice.com/store/Main.aspx?p=ItemDetailOptions&item=000934

Or if you or you have a decent gun Smith you can DT receiver to mount something like this.
http://www.champchoice.com/store/Main.aspx?p=ItemDetailOptions&item=3902050
Williams makes a simular sight to the lyman. Although you can flip the Williams around and mount it lefty.
Here are some bases for sights for ideas.
http://www.champchoice.com/store/Main.aspx?p=CategoryBody&c=OPSB
Looking at the savage LH one of the top mount sight sets might be your best option or find a biathlon heavy web site and search the classifieds.

I have mounted aperture style sights on several of my 22s and needed to get bases and Drill and tap most of them.
So far gunsmith with in a reasonable distance where of little help.

Thanks again for the links, mac1911...I am hoping to find a gunsmith in the Boston area who can install sights as it would be disappointing for me to try to get all the equipment and knowledge for doing this just to ruin a rifle out of inexperience.

I have a 455 American. The comb on the stock will put your eye right where you want it for a scope but is too high for iron sights to be comfortable (at least for me). The lux stock is designed for the iron sights that ship with the rifle. Having said that, aftermarket stocks are abundant and reasonable for the CZ action. I would focus on finding the left hand action.

This is fine advice - thank you for saying this. I will look for the Lux if I can get it. I am hoping to get a biathlon hooked adjustable buttplate and cheekpiece attached to the stock.

If you go Savage BVTLSS, and you want biathlon sights (for possible winter use) email Eastern Sierra Armory for their sight kit and finish it with the Anschutz 6827 biathlon rear sight and Williams front sight. He is selling biathlon stocks for the Savage again, although you won't get one before summer is over. Apachee Trigger, a bunch of 5 rnd mags and you are set.

I've talked with him, and he said he will post about LH stocks...but he's said he's doing business differently again, so maybe PMing him on facebook wouldn't be a bad idea.

One small advantage of the BTVLSS over the CZ for biathlon is the 2-stage trigger, which is the usual for biathlon range procedure. I'm not sure how the CZ 1-stage will work with biathlong.

I sent him a PM for the ESA stocks I was not aware he had sight sets. I have considered seeing if he could make a stock for my daughters savage rascal. she will out grow that plastic stock soon and the rifle shoots very well.

He has said the sights would work for BTVLSS, left-hand. OTOH, from the links I posted above, the BTVLSS accuracy and stock issues out of the box look pretty bad.

 

[narthex]

Have you looked at the Browning T bolt,it comes in a left handed version and is a straight pull bolt action which I think would give you a speed advantage as opposed to a typical turn bolt.

I've been reading up, and it seems like a lot of t-bolt owners are rather unhappy with the trigger. =/ For biathlon you'd like it to be set to 2 lbs or under.

 

[mac1911]

Unfortunately I am very new to firearms, so I'm not certain we are talking about the same rifle.



They don't make a 455 in LH yet...



Thanks again for the links, mac1911...I am hoping to find a gunsmith in the Boston area who can install sights as it would be disappointing for me to try to get all the equipment and knowledge for doing this just to ruin a rifle out of inexperience.



This is fine advice - thank you for saying this. I will look for the Lux if I can get it. I am hoping to get a biathlon hooked adjustable buttplate and cheekpiece attached to the stock.



I've talked with him, and he said he will post about LH stocks...but he's said he's doing business differently again, so maybe PMing him on facebook wouldn't be a bad idea.

One small advantage of the BTVLSS over the CZ for biathlon is the 2-stage trigger, which is the usual for biathlon range procedure. I'm not sure how the CZ 1-stage will work with biathlong.



He has said the sights would work for BTVLSS, left-hand. OTOH, from the links I posted above, the BTVLSS accuracy and stock issues out of the box look pretty bad.

OK so I know nothing about the biathlon shooting other than you have to be in shape.....I would be huffing and puffing and wouldn't hit shit with a .225 moa capable rifle.

So think like this the biathlon 50 meter prone target is 4.5cm or 1.77" that's over 3 MOA so if you have a rifle and ammo that can shoot 2MOA or less your golden. Now holding dead center while your heart bangs away and your eyes are watering is another story.

So don't get to hung up on accuracy. Almost all 22s will shoot darn well if you find the ammo it likes. I have a stevens model 25 that will shoot under 3/4" at 50 yards with some old 22 short match I have. Most other ammo its 2moa or worse.
Same with my model 60s they generally suck for target practice but I have some old Remington green box match stuff that is great in them. Then there's my model 552 pretty darn consistent with just about anything.

All fun.... my 513t with SK Standard Plus ammo is shooting pretty darn close to as good as it can with this ammo.... don't get to hung up on accuracy you will spend a fortune. You need a rifle that fits your needs and level of enjoyment you seek from it. Im on a good day a 3moa shooter with match sights even with a known gun and ammo that can shoot sub moa....

since coming back to shooting my rimfire more this is one of my best groups from my 513t this year. Prone with sling 100 yards. Other than the weight and length I would feel comfortable shooting biathlon targets with it at 50 meters.....if I could breath

 

[mac1911]

I forgot about this sight ......it's not a great sight but works and for the money it's a good test run.
It's by no means rugged so you would have to be careful.
It's a Daisy/Avante match sight

 

[KMM696]

I have a MkII BVTLSS, a Browning T-bolt and a CZ 452 American in left hand, shame you're at the wrong end of the state.

The 452 is a better rifle than the MkII, but more in fit and finish than accuracy results. My 452's average group size is a bit smaller than the Savage, but that has more to do with the Savage not trying to hide that it doesn't like a particular type of ammo. The 452 will do okay, even with brands it hates. My Savage responds to the wrong ammo by imitating a shotgun. If I shoot them both with ammo I know they do well with, they run neck and neck. Either of them would work for biathlon, IMO. The articles you linked were interesting, but the writer thinks like a benchrester. He's willing to chase accuracy as far as possible, preferably down to 0.00 - 'cause that's what benchrest competitors do. You have the luxury of an already defined accuracy standard of a rifle mechanically capable of hitting a 1.75" target at 50m. Once your rifle reaches that, you can stop spending resources on chasing the last bit of accuracy and start spending them on the other factors that will affect your performance as a whole.

Good luck!

 

[narthex]

OK so I know nothing about the biathlon shooting other than you have to be in shape.....I would be huffing and puffing and wouldn't hit shit with a .225 moa capable rifle.

So think like this the biathlon 50 meter prone target is 4.5cm or 1.77" that's over 3 MOA so if you have a rifle and ammo that can shoot 2MOA or less your golden. Now holding dead center while your heart bangs away and your eyes are watering is another story.

So don't get to hung up on accuracy. Almost all 22s will shoot darn well if you find the ammo it likes. I have a stevens model 25 that will shoot under 3/4" at 50 yards with some old 22 short match I have. Most other ammo its 2moa or worse.
Same with my model 60s they generally suck for target practice but I have some old Remington green box match stuff that is great in them. Then there's my model 552 pretty darn consistent with just about anything.

All fun.... my 513t with SK Standard Plus ammo is shooting pretty darn close to as good as it can with this ammo.... don't get to hung up on accuracy you will spend a fortune. You need a rifle that fits your needs and level of enjoyment you seek from it. Im on a good day a 3moa shooter with match sights even with a known gun and ammo that can shoot sub moa....

since coming back to shooting my rimfire more this is one of my best groups from my 513t this year. Prone with sling 100 yards. Other than the weight and length I would feel comfortable shooting biathlon targets with it at 50 meters.....if I could breath

mac1911 - thanks for the detailed reply - seems that both you and KMM below seem to agree that getting too hung up on the rifle's accuracy is possible when there are other ways to apply my effort. Luckily I am in contact with and have taken a lesson with Wayne up at Jackson Biathlon in New Hampshire, so I'm working on the problem of correct range and shooting procedure at a higher heart rate.

I have a MkII BVTLSS, a Browning T-bolt and a CZ 452 American in left hand, shame you're at the wrong end of the state.

The 452 is a better rifle than the MkII, but more in fit and finish than accuracy results. My 452's average group size is a bit smaller than the Savage, but that has more to do with the Savage not trying to hide that it doesn't like a particular type of ammo. The 452 will do okay, even with brands it hates. My Savage responds to the wrong ammo by imitating a shotgun. If I shoot them both with ammo I know they do well with, they run neck and neck. Either of them would work for biathlon, IMO. The articles you linked were interesting, but the writer thinks like a benchrester. He's willing to chase accuracy as far as possible, preferably down to 0.00 - 'cause that's what benchrest competitors do. You have the luxury of an already defined accuracy standard of a rifle mechanically capable of hitting a 1.75" target at 50m. Once your rifle reaches that, you can stop spending resources on chasing the last bit of accuracy and start spending them on the other factors that will affect your performance as a whole.

Good luck!

Thanks for this reply - in particular pointing out that the author of those articles thinks differently from a biathlete. Indeed I don't want to pour more time and energy into ensuring the rifle itself is accurate than is necessary; I'd rather be practicing, as masters biathletes often say 'the rifle shoots better than I do.'

And it is too bad I'm on the wrong end of the state! How do you feel about the T-bolt's trigger?

I ended up going with the LH 452 Lux and it will get to my FFL this week. With some help from the guys at RFC I'm narrowing in on a solution to the aperture sights problem; I understand that Denny, who used to import Brno sights and a Lux adapter, is no longer doing so.

Thanks, folks.

 

[KMM696]

My T-Bolt is from 1967, so I'm not sure it'd compare to the current one. It's pretty good, on line with the 452's, but given it's age and that I've only had it 10 of it's years I can't say it's a factory trigger. Lux is a good call for you, I think. It's a very solid rifle, has that lifetime of use feel to it.

 

[mac1911]

mac1911 - thanks for the detailed reply - seems that both you and KMM below seem to agree that getting too hung up on the rifle's accuracy is possible when there are other ways to apply my effort. Luckily I am in contact with and have taken a lesson with Wayne up at Jackson Biathlon in New Hampshire, so I'm working on the problem of correct range and shooting procedure at a higher heart rate.



Thanks for this reply - in particular pointing out that the author of those articles thinks differently from a biathlete. Indeed I don't want to pour more time and energy into ensuring the rifle itself is accurate than is necessary; I'd rather be practicing, as masters biathletes often say 'the rifle shoots better than I do.'

And it is too bad I'm on the wrong end of the state! How do you feel about the T-bolt's trigger?

I ended up going with the LH 452 Lux and it will get to my FFL this week. With some help from the guys at RFC I'm narrowing in on a solution to the aperture sights problem; I understand that Denny, who used to import Brno sights and a Lux adapter, is no longer doing so.

Thanks, folks.

this should work on your rifle....looking into biathlon sights/guns its not cheap but cheaper than a lot of the others

http://www.champchoice.com/store/main.aspx?p=ItemDetailOptions&item=000932

heres a few more

http://www.nordicmarksman.com/Sights.html

here just jump right in at the lower level 3800$ get you right in the game http://www.altiusguns.com/product.php?product_id=21107

 

[mac1911]

just a tid bit ...... been shooting my old 1942 513t and it seems to be seasoning up to the SK Standard plus ammo better each time out. gained a 1/2 moa from last time out...5 sighters and 20 for score

 

[narthex]

this should work on your rifle....looking into biathlon sights/guns its not cheap but cheaper than a lot of the others

http://www.champchoice.com/store/main.aspx?p=ItemDetailOptions&item=000932

heres a few more

http://www.nordicmarksman.com/Sights.html

here just jump right in at the lower level 3800$ get you right in the game http://www.altiusguns.com/product.php?product_id=21107

I ended up going with a TS1 sight from Airforce Airguns and a Centra/Anschutz Duo adjustable front iris. I wrote more about it over at RFC.

Yeah, the Fortner's where I'm heading...if I actually stick with biathlon! Can't justify it now though. Honestly if there had been any way to do a LH bolt action peep sight setup at the price point of the Savage FVT I'd have taken it in a heartbeat. At what I'm paying to kit out the 452 I could have afforded an LH biathlon Izhmash, too...if there weren't an import ban. Just what I got to work with, I have the bug for biathlon and need to start shooting to get faster.