Am I the only one?

[matt]

In regards to calling the shot, crak made a point that is extremely important.

It is not sufficient to note where the front sight was when the shot was fired. It is critical to note how the sight behaves during recoil and where it ends up.

If the front sight stops somewhere else other than where it began, and you call your shot based on where the sight was when you broke the shot, your impact will most likely be off call. Improper natural point of aim is usually the culprit.

When I'm practicing bullseye, I've been using a scope to look for my shots in the black. This has really been benificial to me. Because I can't see the shot in the 3" black spot at 50ft. I have to rely on my sight picture when the shot breaks to call the shot. Then I look in th scope to check that what I called was correct.

This has two benifits for me:
1) I'm not reflexively looking down range to see where my shot landed, because there is nothing to see. This helps my follow through.
2) After a little practice I've been able to call my shots with reasonable accuracy (e.g. "a little low, to the right of center"). When I look in the scope the shot should be where I think it is. If it isn't, then I must of done something wrong other than not point the pistol in the right direction. So, if I call "a little high, to the right of center" and the shot lands low and left, then very likely my sight alignment was good but than I grabbed for the shot and altered the sight alignment at the last moment.

For my defensive shooting I've been thinking I should do something similar by using black silouetts so I can't easily see where the shot lands because I do reflexively look for the hole on white paper. I also like to shoot plates for this reason. I get some feedback that I hit the plate, but I can't look for the hit (and I don't really care where I hit it since it is a 6" plate. Groupings like that will do the job nicely).

 

[GTOShootr]

If the front sight stops somewhere else other than where it began, and you call your shot based on where the sight was when you broke the shot, your impact will most likely be off call.

That is different than what I see as calling the shot. How can where your sights end up influence the impact of the shot you just broke? I definitely use follow through with feedback from the sights to set up calling follow up shots. However, I also accurately call shots without ever seeing where the sights ended up after I broke the shot. For instance, in a match I might draw to a plate and then have to start moving quickly. There would be no value in seeing where my sights ended up since I had called it when I broke the shot.

 

[JimConway]

That is different than what I see as calling the shot. How can where your sights end up influence the impact of the shot you just broke? I definitely use follow through with feedback from the sights to set up calling follow up shots. However, I also accurately call shots without ever seeing where the sights ended up after I broke the shot. For instance, in a match I might draw to a plate and then have to start moving quickly. There would be no value in seeing where my sights ended up since I had called it when I broke the shot.

There is relationship but it is a little more esoteric. In a perfect world we would all have a neutral grip on the firearm. With a neutral grip the gun will rise straight up when in recoil and will return to the same spot it was in just before the shot. I have seen students whose guns rose the the left or to the right when in recoil and did not return to the previous spot. What they were doing was relaxing one of their hands just as the shot broke and before the bullet left the barrel. Needless to say, but the hit was off in the direction of the relaxed hand.
I hope that this helps.

 

[GTOShootr]

Thanks, that makes sense as a form of troubleshooting for problems.

 

[Coyote33]

Jim, you know that you and I agree on a LOT of things. We just tend to part company on what one should be focusing on when the feces is flung for real.

I guess he called this shot, too.

 

[TonyD]

In regards to calling the shot, crak made a point that is extremely important.

It is not sufficient to note where the front sight was when the shot was fired. It is critical to note how the sight behaves during recoil and where it ends up.

If the front sight stops somewhere else other than where it began, and you call your shot based on where the sight was when you broke the shot, your impact will most likely be off call. Improper natural point of aim is usually the culprit.

That relates in a much greater degree in service rifle shooting than combat pistol shooting.

 

[bazfoo]

thank you, guys!

thanks for asking. i was gonna ask the same q.

 

[houdini]

I bring different magic markers to circle the one I hit in differnt colors so I want use a lot of targets.

 

[Jose]

That relates in a much greater degree in service rifle shooting than combat pistol shooting.

That is true, but there is a connection between the two.

When practicing the fundamentals, it is a mistake to ignore the sight during the recoil cycle. Why? Because the firearm's behavior during recoil can help you troubleshoot errors in grip, hold, and NPA.

Once your fundamentals are honed to the point where your sight's motion during recoil is predictable and consistent, your will be developing the muscle memory to make good shots under stress. The conscious has become sub-conscious.

 

[JimConway]

Matt

"For my defensive shooting I've been thinking I should do something similar by using black silouetts so I can't easily see where the shot lands because I do reflexively look for the hole on white paper. I also like to shoot plates for this reason. I get some feedback that I hit the plate, but I can't look for the hit (and I don't really care where I hit it since it is a 6" plate. Groupings like that will do the job nicely"

I am not picking on you specificly and I mean no offence. The first problem that I have with your logic is that the use of black tergets, to avoid looking, is using a crutch. What you must train yourself to do is not to look. Try shooting 1 mag without looking for the hits. When you can do this every time, you are there. My discussions with people that have actually shot at people shows that there is nothing to see, except for, occasionally, the shirt moving outward at the point of the hit.
I can not agree with your comments that a 6 " group is good enough. What you are forgetting is that under stress, you group will be twice as big and 12" is not good enough inless you are very very lucky. In the real world, you should be able to shoot a group no larger that 6" in a fight and your goal should be a 3" group.

 

[matt]

I am not picking on you specifically and I mean no offence. The first problem that I have with your logic is that the use of black tergets, to avoid looking, is using a crutch. What you must train yourself to do is not to look. Try shooting 1 mag without looking for the hits. When you can do this every time, you are there. My discussions with people that have actually shot at people shows that there is nothing to see, except for, occasionally, the shirt moving outward at the point of the hit.
I can not agree with your comments that a 6 " group is good enough. What you are forgetting is that under stress, you group will be twice as big and 12" is not good enough inless you are very very lucky. In the real world, you should be able to shoot a group no larger that 6" in a fight and your goal should be a 3" group.

Hi Jim,

Good comments. My thinking was that the black targets would help me to break the habit. In that sense, I'd consider them a tool rather than a crutch. The use of snap caps in ball and dummy drills aid in reducing recoil anticipation. Are they a crutch or tool?

Regarding the groupings, of course they can always be better. I particularly need to work on single/double action transition. I've concentrated on bullseye shooting lately (where I'm happy to say my groupings are significantly less than 6") and need to spend some time working on more practical issues. Time for another class to inspire me to train better!

Matt

 

[JimConway]

Dummy rounds

Matt
I do not consider dummy rounds to be a crutch in any way. Dummies allow you to verify if you have a problem. If you want to classify them, I consider them to be a Diagnistic tool.