An argument with an anti that ended with a new view on his part.

[Turbocharged]

I was having the usual debate with an borderline anti. Originally his view was that only cops should carry as they are trained to make good choices, ect..
After pointing out cops can't be everywhere, and quoting some funny sig lines I've seen on here (I carry a gun because a cop is too heavy), he actually started to see my points.
That was new to me. He seemed like another "lost cause" case. Keep reading.
After I used an armed robbery as an example of a situation where lethal force would be justified, it went like this:

Him: Actually, most of the time the robber just wants the money, and won't shoot anyone.

Me: Maybe. But sometimes the bad guy is a drugged up lunatic that kills everyone in the store.

Him: (interupts) That isn't really common.

Me: But do you, or anyone else, really want to make that call? Who really wants to guess wether they guy POINTING A GUN AT PEOPLE is going to shoot someone?
His physical actions indicate that he is going to shoot someone. There isn't time to figure out his intentions or what he's thinking. There isn't time to wait it out, to see what happens. You would be gambling with someone elses life.

Him: I would just play it safe. Give the guy what he wants, and hope it ends there. In one case, no one would be harmed. In the other, you could shoot a man with some money problems and nowhere else to turn.

Me: No one would blame you for shooting a man who has indicated that he is going to shoot someone. People will most likely thank you.
People WILL blame you if you had the ability to stop multiple killings, but gave the bad guy the benifit of the doubt, and stood there doing nothing.
Would you rather a dead criminal; and he is a criminal, the instant he pulls that gun and demands the money; or a dead innocent civilian? Don't be ridiculous.

Him:, no no, I see your point.

Me: Then maybe you'll adjust your viewpoint? (yeah, I couldn't think of a better way to find out if I'd had any effect )

Him: haha, well, It's not something I personally would want to do, but I can't fault people who do carry a gun for the protection of themselves and the people around them.


Not a perfect conversion to the good side, but pretty damn good I'd say.
Lucky I caught this anti before it got too far to cure the infection.

Next I think I'll try to get him to the range.

That's PROOF! It CAN be done!

 

[Yelena]

Well done!

 

[Ish]

Nice!! Good job.

Ish.

 

[z0mbi]

I think the problem with this general mindset is that these people think nothing bad is ever going to happen to them.

 

[terraformer]

I think the problem with this general mindset is that these people think nothing bad is ever going to happen to them.

I am remembering a t-shirt... Here is the NSFW (language) link.

 

[KMaurer]

Him: haha, well, It's not something I personally would want to do, but I can't fault people who do carry a gun for the protection of themselves and the people around them.

This come's back to the core of his likely mindset before this conversation. He actually thinks that we're all just waiting for the chance to shoot somebody. Sure, there's always a bunch of adolescent punks who like to talk that way, since they haven't the faintest clue what it involves. But there are just as many lunatics who believe that inert pieces of metal and plastic or wood take over the minds of otherwise innocent people, causing them to engage in crimes they'd never consider in the absence of this evil ju-ju.

Ken

 

[terraformer]

But there are just as many lunatics who believe that inert pieces of metal and plastic or wood take over the minds of otherwise innocent people, causing them to engage in crimes they'd never consider in the absence of this evil ju-ju.

It's funny but that doesn't come up often around here but it is so true. I work with, and am friends with, lots of lefties and many are anti's. Some know about my other life and those that do, undoubtedly will eventually come to say something like "if we don't have guns, people won't want to kill others" but they never say it right away. They hide that for a while and I suspect it is because they know how stupid it sounds, but they believe it and it is the core of the desire to disarm the world.

I just respond back, "When people stop wanting to murder others, what inanimate objects are around them won't matter any longer. Until then they will want to murder, regardless of how."

No big master plan for world domination. No desire to see tyrants rise to power and no desire to dominate us. It's just a grand delusion on the part of many out there WRT guns. It is somewhat anti-climactic really.

ETA: The genesis of this delusion comes from something we talk more about here, the feelings of power and mayhem people who don't normally have access to guns feel when they first shoot. They blame the gun for bringing it out of them and not themselves for feeling this way.

 

[Finalygotabeltfed]

He's still a sheep just waiting to be victimized. The sooner it happens to him, the sooner he'll "maybe"snap out of his coma.

 

[z0mbi]

ETA: The genesis of this delusion comes from something we talk more about here, the feelings of power and mayhem people who don't normally have access to guns feel when they first shoot. They blame the gun for bringing it out of them and not themselves for feeling this way.

I don't know if I necessarily buy this. I'm a new shooter, and the only thing I feel when I'm handling a new gun, or back when I got my first gun, is nerves. Nervous that I'm gonna screw up somehow, nervous that I'm gonna break some rule, or break the gun, or mis-operate it somehow. I never felt anything remotely like the kind of overwhelming sense of power and authority that anti's are constantly claiming you get from holding a gun.

Frankly, I question the mental stability of someone who picks up an object and feels they now have some commanding power over other people.

 

[terraformer]

I don't know if I necessarily buy this. I'm a new shooter, and the only thing I feel when I'm handling a new gun, or back when I got my first gun, is nerves. Nervous that I'm gonna screw up somehow, nervous that I'm gonna break some rule, or break the gun, or mis-operate it somehow. I never felt anything remotely like the kind of overwhelming sense of power and authority that anti's are constantly claiming you get from holding a gun.

Frankly, I question the mental stability of someone who picks up an object and feels they now have some commanding power over other people.

Different people have different reactions. My friend, absolutely felt this power trip rush. It scared the crap out of her and she hasn't touched a gun since. But she felt it. She is fine with other people having guns. I know two more like her.

 

[Blitz1]

Good job bud.

 

[Finalygotabeltfed]

Its called adrenaline......and its not isolated to guns. Many people feel the same thing when involved in other activities such as racing, skiing, skydiving, bungie jumping, ect.

Some people never felt the type of adrenaline rush before because they've never done anything of any risk in their lives.

 

[Finalygotabeltfed]

I don't know if I necessarily buy this. I'm a new shooter, and the only thing I feel when I'm handling a new gun, or back when I got my first gun, is nerves. Nervous that I'm gonna screw up somehow, nervous that I'm gonna break some rule, or break the gun, or mis-operate it somehow. I never felt anything remotely like the kind of overwhelming sense of power and authority that anti's are constantly claiming you get from holding a gun.

Frankly, I question the mental stability of someone who picks up an object and feels they now have some commanding power over other people.

Well, if you pick up a gun and DON'T recognize that you have the power of life and death in your hand, you shouldn't be around guns.

I question the mental capacity of anyone who doesn't recognize it and act accordingly.

 

[z0mbi]

Well, if you pick up a gun and DON'T recognize that you have the power of life and death in your hand, you shouldn't be around guns.

I question the mental capacity of anyone who doesn't recognize it and act accordingly.

If you're questioning my ability to be safe, then think again. I am a safe shooter, and am very much aware of my muzzle and my target and what guns can do... but I don't trip out and want to kill people or make people obey my commands when I pick up a gun.

 

[Finalygotabeltfed]

If you're questioning my ability to be safe, then think again. I am a safe shooter, and am very much aware of my muzzle and my target and what guns can do... but I don't trip out and want to kill people or make people obey my commands when I pick up a gun.

Not questioning your ability to be safe, I question the mental capacity of anyone who picks up a gun and doesn't recognize that they do indeed hold the power of life and death in their hand and should act accordingly.

 

[z0mbi]

Not questioning your ability to be safe, I question the mental capacity of anyone who picks up a gun and doesn't recognize that they do indeed hold the power of life and death in their hand and should act accordingly.

I'm sorry, but your quoting me and your phraseology implies that you're questioning my knowledge of the capabilities of a firearm to cause harm when fired at a person, when that's not even what I was referring to in the first place. I was talking about the 'power trip' anti-gun people always talk about, like picking up a gun alters your mindset somehow and turns you into a violent killer. You can adrenaline rush all you want, I'm not questioning your mental capacity unless you're power tripping.

 

[Jose]

The only thing I feel when I pick up a gun is its weight.

The only thing I feel when I shoot it is its recoil.

 

[Turbocharged]

Not questioning your ability to be safe, I question the mental capacity of anyone who picks up a gun and doesn't recognize that they do indeed hold the power of life and death in their hand and should act accordingly.

The only thing that should be questioned is whether or not my anti friend can be curred.
I think a trip to the range is in order, I'll see if I can get him there. Once we're at the range, it's easy.

 

[JGreen]

Every time an anti pulls a trigger, an angel gets thier wings

 

[TheRoland]

While it might sometimes seem like talking to a brick wall, presenting polite, logical argument can be effective. Case in point, I was a knee-jerk anti, but a year or so ago, I actually had a logical discussion of the issue with a coworker, and changed my mind. A year or two ago, I thought the AWB sounded like a great idea, and now I'll be applying to for my LTC-A in about a month, plan to shoot IDPA, and have my eye on a Beretta 92FS.

I may be a special case, though; I'm an Eagle Scout, so I was around firearms for most of my childhood (so no irrational fear) and being an engineer, being swayed by logic is more or less my job. But, like me, some percentage of the population probably just haven't really thought about it, so trying can pay off.

 

[drgrant]

No big master plan for world domination. No desire to see tyrants rise to power and no desire to dominate us. It's just a grand delusion on the part of many out there WRT guns. It is somewhat anti-climactic really.

I disagree. Most antis, not so coincidentally, also carry around the belief that most individuals are too stupid to govern themselves. We all know where that leads- that almost necessitates a desire for large, overbearing centralized government. Some of it is even a form of projection of their own failings- they feel they are too irresponsible to handle any sort of responsibility, so they'd rather have a government tell them what to do- and that should apply to everyone else, because they believe everyone is as stupid, weak, and irresponsible as they are. They'd rather be slaves than be free- because they don't have enough balls to deal with the curse of the individual- so they take this irrational fear/BS out on everyone else. "I think gun should be banned = I think I'm too stupid or irresponsible to handle a gun, and therefore, nobody else is capable, either. "

Yeah, they might not SAY, they want authoritarian government, but by suggesting that guns should be regulated or banned, they're basically implying and promulgating the notional that it's a good idea for governments to restrict basic rights- and that leads to overbearing governments with aforementioned tyrants being in power.

ETA: I'll also recognize that there are a lot of different kinds of antis. The ones that are hardcore in their belief, though, generally fit the above mold
pretty well. There are a metric ton of others that are "anti by default" and that is kind of another story, though... that's mostly based off fear or
misinformation than anything else. Those folks can often be saved. Others cannot be. In a perfect world we'd just deport the ones that cannot
be to some island somewhere where they can be ruled by some a**h*** government.

-Mike

 

[terraformer]

While it might sometimes seem like talking to a brick wall, presenting polite, logical argument can be effective. Case in point, I was a knee-jerk anti, but a year or so ago, I actually had a logical discussion of the issue with a coworker, and changed my mind. A year or two ago, I thought the AWB sounded like a great idea, and now I'll be applying to for my LTC-A in about a month, plan to shoot IDPA, and have my eye on a Beretta 92FS.

I may be a special case, though; I'm an Eagle Scout, so I was around firearms for most of my childhood (so no irrational fear) and being an engineer, being swayed by logic is more or less my job. But, like me, some percentage of the population probably just haven't really thought about it, so trying can pay off.

Welcome to NES Vulcan^^^^^ I mean TheRoland.

 

[terraformer]

In a perfect world we'd just deport the ones that cannot
be to some island somewhere where they can be ruled by some a**h*** government.

You mean like to australia???

 

[Business]

Ha that's great I was about to say you should take him to the range and then I scrolled down. Great minds think a like lol hopefully you can keep him from the dark side

 

[sgtdemeo]

Originally Posted by z0mbi View Post
I don't know if I necessarily buy this. I'm a new shooter, and the only thing I feel when I'm handling a new gun, or back when I got my first gun, is nerves. Nervous that I'm gonna screw up somehow, nervous that I'm gonna break some rule, or break the gun, or mis-operate it somehow. I never felt anything remotely like the kind of overwhelming sense of power and authority that anti's are constantly claiming you get from holding a gun.

Frankly, I question the mental stability of someone who picks up an object and feels they now have some commanding power over other people.

Well, if you pick up a gun and DON'T recognize that you have the power of life and death in your hand, you shouldn't be around guns.

I question the mental capacity of anyone who doesn't recognize it and act accordingly.

thats funny, i don't feel that way when i drive my car, which, statistically, is MUCH more dangerous than a gun.....

 

[Finalygotabeltfed]

Originally Posted by z0mbi View Post
I don't know if I necessarily buy this. I'm a new shooter, and the only thing I feel when I'm handling a new gun, or back when I got my first gun, is nerves. Nervous that I'm gonna screw up somehow, nervous that I'm gonna break some rule, or break the gun, or mis-operate it somehow. I never felt anything remotely like the kind of overwhelming sense of power and authority that anti's are constantly claiming you get from holding a gun.

Frankly, I question the mental stability of someone who picks up an object and feels they now have some commanding power over other people.







thats funny, i don't feel that way when i drive my car, which, statistically, is MUCH more dangerous than a gun.....

I'll take Vagueness for 800 Alex!

You posted and quoted two different viewpoints in your post......which do you disagree with?

Also, if you drive your car without any feeling of responsibility for yourself and other drivers on the road, you are a hazard to both.

 

[sgtdemeo]

I'll take Vagueness for 800 Alex!

You posted and quoted two different viewpoints in your post......which do you disagree with?

hehehe, sorry, not very clear..... i quoted the wrong post.... this is what i meant to quote....

Originally Posted by z0mbi View Post

If you're questioning my ability to be safe, then think again. I am a safe shooter, and am very much aware of my muzzle and my target and what guns can do... but I don't trip out and want to kill people or make people obey my commands when I pick up a gun.

 

[Finalygotabeltfed]

 

[Larry Legend]

Regarding this "power trip" (for lack of a better term) felt when first handling a gun, I can definitively say YES, I felt an incredible rush of adrenaline when I first handled a handgun. It was even more intense when I stepped to the line and prepared to put rounds downrange. This feeling was VERY similar to the first time I got behind the wheel of my mothers Jeep Cherokee.

It was a kind of nervous excitement that slowly faded as I got more comfortable with the item (gun and vehicle). I am to the point now where I no longer get that nervous adrenaline rush when handling/operating either item (gun or vehicle), yet the situational awareness and safety conscienceness are still ever present.

 

[Negotiator]

I am remembering a t-shirt... Here is the NSFW (language) link.

That was too funny!