Anyone see this? It will make me even more careful.

[drgrant]

Like any gun, Glocks have advantages and disadvantages. IMHO, Glock advantages include:

- low cost (in a free state)
- very low bore axis, results in little muzzle rise
- short reset results in fast follow up shots
- reliable
- excellent coating on the slide
- parts easily swapped out
- DAO/safe-action operation (single, consistent trigger pull)

Disadvantages include:

- poopy trigger (that's a technical gunsmith term )
- large grip circumference
- poopy trigger
- stock sights are terrible (though easily replaced)
- the whole non-drop-free magazine stupidity (now fixed)
- for us 1911 guys, the Glock grip angle is wrong (bloody thing points too high -- I'm waiting for a CCF Raceframe to fix that).
- did I mention the poopy trigger?

As for S&W, until the M&P, I think nothing they had was very competitive.

The M+P still isn't competitive- It has a nanny switch in it and a magazine
safety. The nanny switch I dont mind so much cause it's basically INSIDE
the gun, but the mag safety is pretty much an act of heresy. And you can
be sure that the only way to get an M+P without a mag safety is
via a contract leakout type deal on gunbroker or somesuch, and will
essentially be unobtainium in MA .

Theres also the magazines... which I honestly don't know about... the
gun will be a lot more viable though, in MA, if one can use preban SIGMA
mags with it.

-Mike

 

[daceman63]

The rules apply to all firearms...not just Glocks or S&W. This is the precise reason there are safety rules we all must follow while handling firearms. This guy was lucky. He obviously developed the habbits in the wrong order if he pulled the trigger first and then realized it was too late to check the firearm.

As some here have said...."design blunder" yes...absolutely. But if he is that familiar with the firearm as he posted in his letter he knew that he never checked to clear that chamber. BRAIN FART!!!! Bad timing.

Even with the design blunder it is his fault not the gun's....

 

[daceman63]

Reilly agrees with that thought!

I'm sure he'd agree to do that for all firearms...and they are...by categorizing and banning certain features and types and they won't stop until they get them all. And cases like this don't help at all.

 

[Pilgrim]

Frankly all a "safer" gun is going to do in this
regard is delay the inevitable, which is an ND by some other
means.

Yup, use any old crap weapon, no matter how safe or unsafe it is. After all, any gun you have is gonna go off unintetionally someday so just get it over with now.

Can't say that I agree with your logic.

 

[M1911]

Condemning a glock for the way it takes down is rather amusing, though. It's not much different than bashing a car manufacturer because their headlights don't have windshield wipers on them, and that it's such a huge safety feature when driving on a muddy road.

Huh? Hello? How did you get "...condemning..." from what I wrote, which was this:

I'm not saying that the Glock is unsafe. I am saying that the Sig is safer in this respect.

I've got three Glocks. They're fine guns. But they're not perfect. Neither are my three Sigs. Or my 2 HKs. Or my seven 1911s.

I never condemned Glocks. And neither did Chris. So lose the strawman argument.

 

[drgrant]

Yup, use any old crap weapon, no matter how safe or unsafe it is. After all, any gun you have is gonna go off unintetionally someday so just get it over with now.

Can't say that I agree with your logic.

You missed my point- which is that the OPERATOR is going to eventually
cause an ND anyways, because of a poor safety mindset leading to
other problems down the road. Not clearing a gun properly
before cleaning it is simply a HUGE training deficiency of some
sort. My point is that a person that cannot do that in a regular,
repeatable manner, likely has other "safety issues". Maybe the OP
-was- a pretty safe shooter, but just got COMPLACENT and let his
guard down. Such complacency with safety could lead to errors
in other regards. Would a safety feature have prevented the accident?
probably. But we all know that if he conciously and deliberately "did
the drill" of checking the chamber of any gun he's not 110% certain
of, that this would have never happened. Even if he had kept his
hand out of the way, he would have just wound up with ringing
ears and a dent in his toolbox, and maybe a burn depending on where
his other hand was. (Anyplace except in front of the muzzle would
have been fine!). He screwed up on multiple accounts here... this
seems to tell me he was pretty complacent.

-Mike

 

[drgrant]

Huh? Hello? How did you get "...condemning..." from what I wrote, which was this: I've got three Glocks. They're fine guns. But they're not perfect. Neither are my three Sigs. Or my 2 HKs. Or my seven 1911s.

I never condemned Glocks. And neither did Chris. So lose the strawman argument.

I apologize for the poor verbiage. I just think that the takedown
method is pretty much a non-starter... it's just an opinion, for whatever
it isn't worth. I just think there are far better reasons to dislike a
glock, safety wise. (Namely, the unsupported chamber in some models could be percieved
as a "real" safety issue for those using reloaded ammunition.)

-Mike

 

[M1911]

I apologize for the poor verbiage.

Thanks, I appreciate it.

Should the fact that you have to pull the trigger on a closed chamber before taking down the Glock be an issue? No, it shouldn't. But countless Glock owners have had NDs this way in the past and countless Glock owners will have NDs this way in the future. Should they have had these NDs? No, of course not, they should have properly cleared the gun before starting to field strip.

That said, with a Sig this kind of ND physically can't happen (though, like any gun, you can have NDs in other ways). Even if you start to take down a Sig with a round in the chamber, the first step is to lock the slide open, thus clearing the chamber. And if you follow the Sig take-down process, you never pull the trigger. To me, this makes the Sig take-down process safer than the Glock take-down process. But as I said previously, it appears to me that one of the drawbacks of Sig's implementation of this is their higher bore axis, so this extra margin of safety does not come for free.

I am NOT saying that, as a result of this issue, I would pick a Sig before a Glock. I've got both Sigs and Glocks and, in fact I've carried my Glocks but never my Sigs. I'd feel safe and well armed carrying either a Sig or a Glock. I just prefer 1911s.

So do I think this is a huge issue? No, I don't. I will say this is part of the Glock design that I don't like. YMMV.

 

[News Shooter]

A guy up at a gun store in NH did the same thing

About six weeks or so ago. .45 and I mean it blew his hand apart. It could have been worse, apparently the round just missed his wife

 

[drgrant]

But as I said previously, it appears to me that one of the drawbacks of Sig's implementation of this is their higher bore axis, so this extra margin of safety does not come for free.

I'm going to make a pretty non-dangerous assumption though, that Sig didn't
implement their takedown lever that way as a safety feature. They've
been using that design since long before it was in vogue to be doing
the "airbag lawyerism" tricks in firearms manufacture. I think it's more
utilitarian than that.... If you asked the german engineer that designed it, the intent
was probably to make the gun come apart easily. And they certainly accomplished that
goal, as SigSauer P-series handguns are probably the easiest guns on the market to take
apart and reassemble. I have not seen anything semiautomatic yet that is easier
to field strip + reassemble than a SIG. The "added safety" benefit is
probably just a side effect of this. Glock, on the other hand, probably
chose their method as it was a way to reduce the "critical parts" count,
which iis a pretty decent goal by itself. (Somewhere there is a video of a
glock firing with the entire takedown lever missing from its slot, which
sort of demonstrates this. (somehow the gun stays together and functions
despite it being missing certain parts...).

Mind you, I don't have a lot of trouble with taking apart most handguns... aside from
the pesky Ruger MKII. But the way SIG did things makes the job easier for someone who has
limited experience or limited amounts of manual dexterity.


-Mike

 

[Coyote33]

I'm going to make a pretty non-dangerous assumption though, ...

... SigSauer P-series handguns are probably the easiest guns on the market to take apart and reassemble. I have not seen anything semiautomatic yet that is easier to field strip + reassemble than a SIG....

Ever see a Ruger P-series?
http://www.ruger.com/Firearms/PS-InstructionManuals-PI.html

 

[tele_mark]

About six weeks or so ago. .45 and I mean it blew his hand apart. It could have been worse, apparently the round just missed his wife

You're talking about Don at Stae Line in Mason. He did it on Father's Day. He was sitting in his living room, and he went to de-cock his pistol. He told me he has some sort of arthritis I can't recll the name of, that makes his fingers stiff and numb. Apparently one of his fingers entered the trigger guard and he didn't notice it, and fired the gun. .45 Hydrashok through the hand. Funny thing was I'd been going into the shop following, and never even noticed until one day I woke up and saw the contraption on his hand.

 

[dwarven1]

OK, I KNOW you should always check and double check, but has anyone else always thought the "Pull the Trigger" before disassembly of a Glock was a BAD idea? I still can't picture how he was holding the gun so that he shot himself like that. I've always held a Glock from underneath, operated the takedown and pulled the slide off.

I was talking about this with Mike Larocca today; he demonstrated with a RED Glock that he had (apparently sold as a demonstration model) - apparently you have to apply a little force to the front of the slide to get the takedown levers to move (or maybe move easier). I'd guess that this idiot was already thinking about disassembling the gun and not about clearing it... he was already past that point in his mind.

 

[News Shooter]

Yep

that's the one. I was protecting his identity. I saw him first about a week afer it happened..he was in a lot of pain and still in shock. He's doing a lot better now

 

[dwarven1]

Ever see a Ruger P-series?

Yup. My P90 is a breeze to field strip.

Still an ugly gun, though.














but not as ugly as a Glock.

 

[drgrant]

Ever see a Ruger P-series?
http://www.ruger.com/Firearms/PS-InstructionManuals-PI.html

It's still easier to take a sig apart than that. Theres no alignment, or
removing a pin, or any of that stuff. Not that the ruger is "difficult "
at all, but it's still not as simplistic as the way the sig comes
apart. With the sig theres no "funny handhold" required for
takedown. Lock it open, flick the switch, pull back and ride
the slide forward off the rails... how easier can you get than that?
In other terms... the sig only requires gross motor skills for dissasembly..
there aren't too many other semis set up like that. Even a Beretta
requires that you push this little button to flip the lever, although it's more
or less a similar kind of setup.


-Mike

 

[drgrant]

but not as ugly as a Glock.

At least a Glock doesn't have the owners manual warning section printed
all over the side of it.

Ruger makes a good gun but their lawyerism is a little
insane in that regard.

 

[Weerd Beard]

He violated those 2 rules plus a third which should be number 1

Don't use a Glock !


These types of "accident's" are almost always involving Glocks.

Glocks are Evil !

I hate glocks as much as the next guy, and I lust after 1911s, as us 1911 buffs do....still we gotta be fair. These accidents happen to Glocks only because Glocks are so popular. Before Gaston Glock invented his ugly peice of attack tupperware it was JM Browning's Lovley 1911 that caused more NDs than any other gun model...because there were so many more of them than other pistol models.

Say what you will about Glock's safty features, and wether or not you think they constitute as design flaws or not. Negligent gun handling will ALWAYS result in a ND eventully. Doesn't matter if it's an evil glock with a light trigger and a 3,000 round magazine loaded with black talons, or one of AG Reilly's pet gun's with a 2 round restricted magazine, GPS and a damn brethalizer. You ignore the 4 rules long enugh, eventully you're gonna have an ND.

For a little backup on this, answer this question: Does a Magazine disconnect, and a witness hole loaded chamber indicator make a gun less likely to have a ND?

-Weer'd Beard

 

[M1911]

apparently you have to apply a little force to the front of the slide to get the takedown levers to move

The procedure to field strip a Glock is as follows:

1) unload the gun.
2) check it again.
3) are you really sure the chamber is empty?
4) will you bet your left hand that the chamber is empty?
5) pull the trigger
6) retract the slide a fraction of an inch. If you retract too much, you have recocked the gun, so go back to step 5. If you don't retract enough, step 7 won't work.
7) pull down fully on both disassembly levers while keeping the slide retracted, and then push the slide forward off the frame.

Part of the problem is step 7 where you need a third hand. One approach by some Glockers is to put the support thumb through the trigger guard, wrapping the support hand over the front of the slide and retracting it just so. This allows you to support the entire gun with the support hand while keeping the slide retracted just the right amount, freeing your strong hand to operate the disassembly levers. The problem with this technique is that it puts a portion of your support palm directly in front of the muzzle, particularly if you are disassembling a subcompact Glock. And as discussed previously, your support hand is NOT a safe direction.

And if it is midnight and you mess up the order, don't clear the chamber, and put your support hand over the muzzle while you pull the trigger, then you just might put a hole in your hand.

 

[dwarven1]

And if it is midnight and you mess up the order, don't clear the chamber, and put your support hand over the muzzle while you pull the trigger, then you just might put a hole in your hand.

A Glock is more likely to AD at midnight? What if you sacrifice a goat and place its entrails on the slide under a full moon - will that make it less likely to AD?

 

[M1911]

That was a reference to the article which started this whole thread. IIRC, it happened quite late at night. My guess is the guy was tired, wasn't paying attention, and the bad habits that he'd gotten into over a long period of time finally jumped up and bit him in the behind.

 

[dwarven1]

jumped up and bit him in the behind.

Oh, that's a mental image I really didn't need...

 

[Lugnut]

Accidents DO happen, and I think it somewhat arrogant when I run into the “It can’t happen to me” attitude. The message here is that it can happen to ANYONE.

Whether or not everyone agrees with this doesn't matter- your point is a good one. If you are so over confident that nothing could ever go wrong IMHO I think you've already let your guard down to a point.

Like another poster previously said... I TRY TO MAKE 1000% the chamber is empty by triple checking often times. I'd MUCH rather be over cautious than not enough. A GUN IS ALWAYS LOADED- is the way I try to think of things before ever pulling a trigger or pointing it at something I don't want harmed or killed.

I recall at a Bruce Gray Skill Builder class that Bruce didn't even like pointing a gun frame (slide AND barrel completely removed) anywhere near us. I learned something that day.

 

[Lugnut]

The procedure to field strip a Glock is as follows:

1) unload the gun.
2) check it again.
3) are you really sure the chamber is empty?
4) will you bet your left hand that the chamber is empty?
5) pull the trigger
6) retract the slide a fraction of an inch. If you retract too much, you have recocked the gun, so go back to step 5. If you don't retract enough, step 7 won't work.
7) pull down fully on both disassembly levers while keeping the slide retracted, and then push the slide forward off the frame.

Part of the problem is step 7 where you need a third hand. One approach by some Glockers is to put the support thumb through the trigger guard, wrapping the support hand over the front of the slide and retracting it just so. This allows you to support the entire gun with the support hand while keeping the slide retracted just the right amount, freeing your strong hand to operate the disassembly levers. The problem with this technique is that it puts a portion of your support palm directly in front of the muzzle, particularly if you are disassembling a subcompact Glock. And as discussed previously, your support hand is NOT a safe direction.

And if it is midnight and you mess up the order, don't clear the chamber, and put your support hand over the muzzle while you pull the trigger, then you just might put a hole in your hand.

M1911 I agree with all your points so far (except I DO like the Glock trigger) but I'm lost here. For number seven above I don't understand how someone gets anything in front of the muzzle. I can't explain how I do it but I have no problem with my small hands and I have some baby Glocks and a 19.

Oh did I say how much I LOVE my Glocks??? I too have Sigs and Glocks and a couple others. I CCW my Glocks only and I love the hell out of shooting them! I also like the stock sites...

 

[drgrant]

M1911 I agree with all your points so far (except I DO like the Glock trigger) but I'm lost here. For number seven above I don't understand how someone gets anything in front of the muzzle. I can't explain how I do it but I have no problem with my small hands and I have some baby Glocks and a 19.

Same here. I have a 17L, 19, 20, 29, and all of them come apart without
having to put my hand in front of the muzzle. I suppose if ones fingers
are made out of grease or something it might be difficult... but I can
do it even without using fingernails. Even with my friend's 26, still
can do it from underneath the gun. (I just cleaned it on sunday before
I brought it back to him.).


-Mike

 

[drgrant]

For a little backup on this, answer this question: Does a Magazine disconnect, and a witness hole loaded chamber indicator make a gun less likely to have a ND?

-Weer'd Beard

Not only no, but hell no! That's what I've been driving at
here.

-Mike

 

[M1911]

Lugnut: I'll see if I can take a picture in a couple days.

 

[Coyote33]

It's still easier to take a sig apart than that. Theres no alignment, or
removing a pin, or any of that stuff. Not that the ruger is "difficult "
at all, but it's still not as simplistic as the way the sig comes
apart. With the sig theres no "funny handhold" required for
takedown. Lock it open, flick the switch, pull back and ride
the slide forward off the rails... how easier can you get than that?
In other terms... the sig only requires gross motor skills for dissasembly..
there aren't too many other semis set up like that. Even a Beretta
requires that you push this little button to flip the lever, although it's more
or less a similar kind of setup.

It's still easier to take a Ruger apart than that. Theres no flicking a switch, or pulling back, or any of that stuff. Not that the sig is "difficult "
at all, but it's still not as simplistic as the way the Ruger comes
apart. With the Ruger theres no "funny handhold" required for
takedown. Push the slide part way forward, pull the pin, and pull the rest of the way off the rails... how easier can you get than that?
In other terms... the Ruger only requires gross motor skills for dissasembly..
there aren't too many other semis set up like that. Even a Beretta
requires that you push this little button to flip the lever, although it's more
or less a similar kind of setup.


(-:

 

[M1911]

With the Ruger theres no "funny handhold" required for takedown.

Huh? What funny hand hold is required to field strip a Sig?

 

[stoneypete]

I always unload my guns before I put them away. I check my guns when I remove them from the safe.

One day I took a 1911A1 from the safe and pulled the slide back as always. A live round came out. Glad I checked it.

We can never be too safe.