Asked a funny Question...

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drew said:
Theres alot more to CCW, than just laws though.. Ex: how to aquire target properyly without hurting yourself or others, draw, grip, presentation, where to place the rounds, the Psychological aspects, the physical limitations(tunnel vision, sweaty hands, trembling, loss of hearing, and most of important awareness of surroundings) how many rounds to fire, how to communicate, who to communicate too, all theese things to look at, and you think common sense will pravail, without training.... Two words for ya, Your Dreaming.... As far as Instructors teaching the CCW course, would have to certified, would have to know the Laws and would have to certified through a well known Instructional School... Fees are up to the Instructor on the course being taught... Instructor certs would be assesed by a panel of Qualified Instructors.... Just my .02..
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Lots of people have prevailed in gunfights with little or no training.

The NRA has archives full of their stories. That you dismiss that evidence speaks volumes of your ignorance.

Your $.02 ain't worth crap where I stand.
 
drew said:
Also, why do so many people think, that the average human being, man and women alike, dont need to take a basic safety class in order to have a firearm?
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Because it's a free country, and the 2nd says we can. Once you start regulating a right, it is restricted. It means you can "fail" to receive that which is a right. Do people have to go to a speech class before they can open their big mouths?

Edit: after reading your subsequent posts, I can see you'd be all for appointing a "firearm training czar" for determining training and suitability of each individual. [puke] As Jose said, the NRA has plenty of stories out all the time (in the monthy Rifleman) about people defending themselves with firearms. The vibe with most of them is that they are not highly trained individuals, many had never fired before. I am so glad I'm in a free state where I don't have to go through hoops to exercise my rights to whatever extent I feel appropriate. All I'm hearing from you is laws laws laws, people are too stupid on their own lets control them. [sad2]
 
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Let's not convince ourselves that some of us are in favor of lots of training and some are opposed to it. I'll bet that almost everybody favors lots and lots of training. (Whether they actually bother to get any is a discussion for another time.) Where we differ is that some of us believe that this is one of those decisions that competent adults should make for themselves. Others believe that the government should don it's cloak of parenthood and decide for everyone before they're allowed out without a chaperon. I count myself in the first group.

Ken
 
KMaurer said:
Let's not convince ourselves that some of us are in favor of lots of training and some are opposed to it. I'll bet that almost everybody favors lots and lots of training. (Whether they actually bother to get any is a discussion for another time.) Where we differ is that some of us believe that this is one of those decisions that competent adults should make for themselves. Others believe that the government should don it's cloak of parenthood and decide for everyone before they're allowed out without a chaperon. I count myself in the first group.
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I'm an NRA certified instructor. I have about 200 hours of formal training. Like Ken, I count myself in the first group. I don't think concealed carry should be limited to rich people who have the time and money to avail themselves of training.
 
I don't own a firearm yet, but the first thing I'm gonna shoot are these damn seagulls! Responsible or not.... its gonna happen!!!! JK

Do they teach this training course anywhere?[rofl]
 
ASHDUMP said:
I don't own a firearm yet, but the first thing I'm gonna shoot are these damn seagulls! Responsible or not.... its gonna happen!!!! JK

Do they teach this training course anywhere?[rofl]
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Skeet works pretty good as training for what you need.
 
I am aware, of all types of stories, of Law Biding Citizens saving their own asses, with a firearm. I'm not dismissing that, I am simply stating the fact, that, there are too many ignoramices walking around carrying firearms. Just because their Licensed, doesnt mean that their competant enough to carry or posess a firearm. Do you really think that those people are going to go out and get further training? When they dont think they need basic safety to begin with. You are right on the fact that not every can afford the expensive training schools or classes. But not all the training that is availible, is that expensive... Seen way too many ND, way too many morons pointing guns loaded or not at people they dont intend to shoot or destroy.... Seen too many people puting their fingers on the trigger when not ready to fire, have even seen a dumbass walking around with her finger on the trigger, magazine removed from the gun and a round in the chamber.... She was carrying a Glock 22 and didnt realize that the gun, was capable of firing with the magazine removed.... After she had pressed the trigger with an ND, I had asked her about her firearms training...Surprise, Surprise, No f***ing safety class attended, and her dumbass boy friend didnt explain this concept to her... So do I think everyone needs to take a saftey class in order to own/operate firearms, absolutely... Do I think that you should have to take CCW course, in order to carry, absolutely.... Way to much ignorance out there to ignore the issue... Once again Jose, common sense isnt very common now is it? Being a former LEO yourself, I would think that you, of all people, would understand. Since seeing how alot of LEOs need more training themselves, and Law Enforcement is mostly common sense....
 
drew said:
I'm not dismissing that, I am simply stating the fact, that, there are too many ignoramices walking around carrying firearms. Just because their Licensed, doesnt mean that their competant enough to carry or posess a firearm.

So do I think everyone needs to take a saftey class in order to own/operate firearms, absolutely... Do I think that you should have to take CCW course, in order to carry, absolutely.... Way to much ignorance out there to ignore the issue... Once again Jose, common sense isnt very common now is it?
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I don't really know where to start. There is no requirement to have a certain IQ to exercise a right. You basically say you are in favor of restricting ownership to who is deemed suited and well trained to operate a firearm; and requiring people to jump through expensive training and licensing hoops. YOU think it is common sense, but others think it is un-Constitutional and wrong. You're posting the talking points from the Brady Center. It doesn't get any more anti than that. What you fail to realize is laws and restrictions aren't designed around safety, they are designed to CONTROL AND RESTRICT. People like you feed them. [sad2]
 
just a point of clarification...

according to the smart people who wrote the document, the 2nd does not give you the RTBA... it simply enumerates it.

that, my friends, is a HUGE fuggin difference.
 
Unfortunately, there aren't a lot of classes around that cure stupidity. That's the cause of almost all accidents, not lack of formal training. That's the same reason that even police and people who've taken a lot of training fall victim to Darwin.

You want the class? Here it is: Don't do stupid things, go to stupid places or hang around with stupid people.

Ken
 
KMaurer said:
Unfortunately, there aren't a lot of classes around that cure stupidity. That's the cause of almost all accidents, not lack of formal training. That's the same reason that even police and people who've taken a lot of training fall victim to Darwin.

You want the class? Here it is: Don't do stupid things, go to stupid places or hang around with stupid people.

Ken
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Yep, the instructions on how NOT to kill yourself of anyone else with the firearm are included with the gun. In draconian states like MA, there is even text telling you to read the instructions on the firearm itself! How much more do you really need to know? Finger off trigger = safe gun. [rolleyes]
 
Were in the hell, are you coming up with this Brady Center Bullshit? You have to licensed to do certain things, and in order to obtain certain licenses, you have to be certified or qualified to do so.... So why the hell, should you not have to be properly taught basic firearms safety? Stop using the freaking 2nd Amend, as an excuse for letting people remain ignorant... I'm all for people owning firearms, I'm all for people being able to protect themselves and loved ones... People like me, are trying to change the negative outlook the Anti's are trying to portray... Any body with any common sense, would realize, that if it was mandated to take a basic safety class, then everybody would be educated in safe handling of firearms and the antis wouldnt have a leg to stand on... Some of you are dismissing the fact there so many dumbasses that are getting away with negligence and child neglect/abuse, because their using the 2nd Amend. as a scapegoat for careless or stupidity on their behalf... If they took a safety class and learned how to properly store a firearm when not in use or in your possession then their kid who was left unattended, (another issue I know, but they are linked) wouldnt have gotten a hold of said gun, and shot themselves or another child for matter.... Common sense would tell theese people this stuff, but it still happens... So saying people like me, give fuel to the antis fire is a moronic thing to say....[smile]
 
Tom, you would not believe how many people dont get that concept, without it being taught to them.... This is 28 years of being around people and guns.....

Quote:
Finger off trigger = safe gun
 
Jose said:
Lots of people have prevailed in gunfights with little or no training.

The NRA has archives full of their stories. That you dismiss that evidence speaks volumes of your ignorance.

Your $.02 ain't worth crap where I stand.
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I agree. Certainly training a good thing and basic safety is a MUST.

However, the idea that you need to be training 40hrs a week to carry safely is bullshit, IMHO. It's similar to the same sort of crap that you read about everyone freezing up in a gunfight (the classic liberal "you'll be too scared to use it anyways" argument"). Not everyone wilts under pressure.

Most gun fights are close range - it's good to train for the 1 in a million "terrorists" are taking over the country situation (and it's fun to train that way), but realistically if you can draw without shooting yourself in the groin you probably in decent shape against most BGs.

And to the OP, in all likelihood the guy was a fudd, it was not an innocent question.
 
Mass-diver said:
Most gun fights are close range - it's good to train for the 1 in a million "terrorists" are taking over the country situation (and it's fun to train that way), but realistically if you can draw without shooting yourself in the groin you probably in decent shape against most BGs.
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I suspect that in the vast majority of the times that a person draws their gun, no shots are fired. The perp sees the gun and decides to di di mao.

No, I'm not saying that you should count on that happening. Far from it. But the vast majority of the people carrying concealed are not IDPA sharpshooters, and chances are they won't need to be.

Is training good? Yes. Is more training better? Of course. But I don't like the government requiring this.

Your ex-boyfriend is stalking you and has threatened to kill you? Sure, you can get a CCW. First take this course. Next one is a month from now, cost is $200, and it is taught on Mondays and Tuesdays, so plan for vacation from work. Second, apply for the permit. You should get that two months later.
 
drew said:
Were in the hell, are you coming up with this Brady Center Bullshit? You have to licensed to do certain things, and in order to obtain certain licenses, you have to be certified or qualified to do so.... So why the hell, should you not have to be properly taught basic firearms safety? Stop using the freaking 2nd Amend, as an excuse for letting people remain ignorant... I'm all for people owning firearms, I'm all for people being able to protect themselves and loved ones... People like me, are trying to change the negative outlook the Anti's are trying to portray... Any body with any common sense, would realize, that if it was mandated to take a basic safety class, then everybody would be educated in safe handling of firearms and the antis wouldnt have a leg to stand on... Some of you are dismissing the fact there so many dumbasses that are getting away with negligence and child neglect/abuse, because their using the 2nd Amend. as a scapegoat for careless or stupidity on their behalf... If they took a safety class and learned how to properly store a firearm when not in use or in your possession then their kid who was left unattended, (another issue I know, but they are linked) wouldnt have gotten a hold of said gun, and shot themselves or another child for matter.... Common sense would tell theese people this stuff, but it still happens... So saying people like me, give fuel to the antis fire is a moronic thing to say....[smile]
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You can't legislate common sense. Some people could take all the courses in the world and still not be safe.
Plenty of people grew up with firearms in the house unlocked and readily accesable prior to all this gun control and training without it being a problem.
The difference is that most parents were responsible and they passed this on to their children. Nowadays not anywhere near as much. Most people want to pass the buck.
 
animal8526 said:
just a point of clarification...

according to the smart people who wrote the document, the 2nd does not give you the RTBA... it simply enumerates it.
Click to expand...
Now, I can clarify your clarification... [laugh]

It doesn't even do that... It specifically prohibits government from infringing upon it...

"the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed"...

the "right" just "IS"... As I've said elsewhere, it was presumed with other natural rights to be "endowed by the creator", not "bestowed" or "granted" by any government of man...

Drew, this is why we get offended by your suggestion of "reasonable limitation". You are attempting to restrict what we believe no government has or should claim to have the power to do...

We are happy to potentially suffer the consequences of man's stupidity rather than certainly suffer the abuses of an oppressive government. We can minimize the stupidity by helping our children and fellow Americans with training...
 
the 2A is not some words written on paper as an excuse to hide behind. the fact that you don't understand what everyone is saying here makes you closer to the Fudd asking you questions than you are to us.

time to use my signature on another forum...
 
Jose said:
The skills measured by gun games classifications have little to nothing to do with winning fights.
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I would disagree. in both you want to put hits on target as fast and as accurately as possible to win. Classification will tell you who is better at it.

In a gun fight, who would you want to go against. a GM or some guy that only goes to shooting classes?
 
KMaurer said:
Let's not convince ourselves that some of us are in favor of lots of training and some are opposed to it. I'll bet that almost everybody favors lots and lots of training. (Whether they actually bother to get any is a discussion for another time.) Where we differ is that some of us believe that this is one of those decisions that competent adults should make for themselves. Others believe that the government should don it's cloak of parenthood and decide for everyone before they're allowed out without a chaperon. I count myself in the first group.
Click to expand...
Ken, my personal belief is that since I do carry, I should get trained - and I have done so. But I do not believe that the RIGHT to bear arms is predicated on my being trained; it's predicated on my being an American.

drew said:
I am aware, of all types of stories, of Law Biding Citizens saving their own asses, with a firearm. I'm not dismissing that, I am simply stating the fact, that, there are too many ignoramices walking around carrying firearms. Just because their Licensed, doesnt mean that their competant enough to carry or posess a firearm. Do you really think that those people are going to go out and get further training? When they dont think they need basic safety to begin with. You are right on the fact that not every can afford the expensive training schools or classes. But not all the training that is availible, is that expensive... Seen way too many ND, way too many morons pointing guns loaded or not at people they dont intend to shoot or destroy.... Seen too many people puting their fingers on the trigger when not ready to fire, have even seen a dumbass walking around with her finger on the trigger, magazine removed from the gun and a round in the chamber.... She was carrying a Glock 22 and didnt realize that the gun, was capable of firing with the magazine removed.... After she had pressed the trigger with an ND, I had asked her about her firearms training...Surprise, Surprise, No f***ing safety class attended, and her dumbass boy friend didnt explain this concept to her... So do I think everyone needs to take a saftey class in order to own/operate firearms, absolutely... Do I think that you should have to take CCW course, in order to carry, absolutely.... Way to much ignorance out there to ignore the issue... Once again Jose, common sense isnt very common now is it? Being a former LEO yourself, I would think that you, of all people, would understand. Since seeing how alot of LEOs need more training themselves, and Law Enforcement is mostly common sense....
Click to expand...

drew said:
Were in the hell, are you coming up with this Brady Center Bullshit? You have to licensed to do certain things, and in order to obtain certain licenses, you have to be certified or qualified to do so.... So why the hell, should you not have to be properly taught basic firearms safety? Stop using the freaking 2nd Amend, as an excuse for letting people remain ignorant... I'm all for people owning firearms, I'm all for people being able to protect themselves and loved ones... People like me, are trying to change the negative outlook the Anti's are trying to portray... Any body with any common sense, would realize, that if it was mandated to take a basic safety class, then everybody would be educated in safe handling of firearms and the antis wouldnt have a leg to stand on... Some of you are dismissing the fact there so many dumbasses that are getting away with negligence and child neglect/abuse, because their using the 2nd Amend. as a scapegoat for careless or stupidity on their behalf... If they took a safety class and learned how to properly store a firearm when not in use or in your possession then their kid who was left unattended, (another issue I know, but they are linked) wouldnt have gotten a hold of said gun, and shot themselves or another child for matter.... Common sense would tell theese people this stuff, but it still happens... So saying people like me, give fuel to the antis fire is a moronic thing to say....[smile]
Click to expand...

Drew, I don't have 30 minutes to correct the above gibberish, so let me just say this - if we applied the same standards to the First Amendment as you want to apply to the Second, you would NOT be able to post until you took a remedial English class. For the sake of our eyes, can you PLEASE learn how to apply proper grammar, and install a spell-checker?
 
drew said:
Were in the hell, are you coming up with this Brady Center Bullshit? You have to licensed to do certain things, and in order to obtain certain licenses, you have to be certified or qualified to do so.... So why the hell, should you not have to be properly taught basic firearms safety? Stop using the freaking 2nd Amend, as an excuse for letting people remain ignorant... I'm all for people owning firearms, I'm all for people being able to protect themselves and loved ones... People like me, are trying to change the negative outlook the Anti's are trying to portray... Any body with any common sense, would realize, that if it was mandated to take a basic safety class, then everybody would be educated in safe handling of firearms and the antis wouldnt have a leg to stand on... Some of you are dismissing the fact there so many dumbasses that are getting away with negligence and child neglect/abuse, because their using the 2nd Amend. as a scapegoat for careless or stupidity on their behalf... If they took a safety class and learned how to properly store a firearm when not in use or in your possession then their kid who was left unattended, (another issue I know, but they are linked) wouldnt have gotten a hold of said gun, and shot themselves or another child for matter.... Common sense would tell theese people this stuff, but it still happens... So saying people like me, give fuel to the antis fire is a moronic thing to say....[smile]
Click to expand...

This paragraph is a fundamental misunderstanding of the notion of rights.

You do not have a "right" to drive a car on the public highways. Hence the government can force you to be licensed to allow you the privelege.

You do however have a fundamental human right to self defense and the means of that defense. It's very nice that it's also in the constitution, but that's not the source of the right.

You do not require a license to write a blog, a newspaper article or or any other exercise of the 1st amendment. Why do you think it's reasonable to demand you have one to exercise any other right?

Every time...EVERY time the antis are able to make us go through hoops to exercise our 2A rights they make those hoops as difficult and expensive as possible. They then hold the license over your head so that if you do anything of which they even remotely disapprove, they can revoke it.

When you agree to pay $250 for your forum posting training and license and $250 for your voting training and license and allow both to be subject to revocation without much recourse and for virtually no reason other than your local Chief of Police doesn't like you, then we can talk about what a good idea forced training and licensing for guns might be.

People do stupid things with guns. They also do stupid things with power tools. Reporters write stupid things in newspapers that get people killed not infrequently.

All rights have associated costs. That's the real meaning of freedom isn't free.

Yes you can write whatever you want, even though your newspaper might start a BS war. (See Hearst and the Spanish American War) Yes, you have the right to keep and bear arms, even though some people will do stupid or evil things with firearms.
 
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