ATF: hard at work seizing... toys?

[center442]

I think this thread would be a great topic for a "Mythbusters" episode.

 

[drgrant]

I think this thread would be a great topic for a "Mythbusters" episode.

We need a foreign country to operate in (that doesn't have lame gun laws) or flag of convenience ship located far enough offshore.... otherwise, we'd likely be filming a felony.

-Mike

 

[lupis42]

I think this thread would be a great topic for a "Mythbusters" episode.

You just need to get the appropriate LEOs and/or FFLs involved. That's how the Mythbusters get away with things like having a .50 cal in Commiefornia.

 

[Dench]

We need a foreign country to operate in (that doesn't have lame gun laws) or flag of convenience ship located far enough offshore.... otherwise, we'd likely be filming a felony.

-Mike

Or someone could film it in the middle of no where, and tell the .gov it was filmed somewhere in Africa

 

[terraformer]

We need a foreign country to operate in (that doesn't have lame gun laws) or flag of convenience ship located far enough offshore.... otherwise, we'd likely be filming a felony.

-Mike

Or an 07.

 

[drgrant]

Or an 07.

Don't they still have to beg for permission before manufacturing something? Might have to wait a long time.

-Mike

 

[terraformer]

Don't they still have to beg for permission before manufacturing something? Might have to wait a long time.

-Mike

From an R&D perspective. Like tinkering? I doubt it. I always thought you needed to get sign off on production.

 

[lupis42]

Don't they still have to beg for permission before manufacturing something? Might have to wait a long time.

-Mike

Isn't one-eyed jack an 07? He would probably know.

 

[theGringo]

Some people can do anything with an airsoft ...

 

[cekim]

From an R&D perspective. Like tinkering? I doubt it. I always thought you needed to get sign off on production.

Terra, my last browse of the regs looking over NFA, C&R and the like, I read a few passages in that area and while I definitely could mistaken, there is no "exception" for "tinkering" or R&D. You need to have a FFL in place for that and then file a form (post-haste) when it comes into being - even for "tinkering"...

 

[terraformer]

Terra, my last browse of the regs looking over NFA, C&R and the like, I read a few passages in that area and while I definitely could mistaken, there is no "exception" for "tinkering" or R&D. You need to have a FFL in place for that and then file a form (post-haste) when it comes into being - even for "tinkering"...

I know the FFL thing, but it's the "permission" as Mike put it is not clear to me. If you make a part and destroy that part in a matter of minutes, does that require a form and do you have to wait for permission before doing so?

 

[cekim]

I know the FFL thing, but it's the "permission" as Mike put it is not clear to me. If you make a part and destroy that part in a matter of minutes, does that require a form and do you have to wait for permission before doing so?

Again, based on my poor and hasty read, I wasn't not terribly concerned with this section you did not need to "get permission" to build something evil provided you are already an 07 FFL - you just had to file a form when the part in question came into existence.

 

[cekim]

Terra:

A Class 2 SOT can make, tax free, machine guns, silencers, short
rifles, short shotguns or AOWs. A Class 2 can also have weapons
transferred to him tax free, by other SOT's. He also has to have
a type 07 or type 10 FFL. He does not need to ask prior permission
of ATF to make a weapon, he would notify ATF of its making within
24 hours after its making by filing Form 2 with ATF.

You will find this verbiage repeated all over the net in NFA FAQs
http://www.lmsdefense.com/forum/index.php?topic=1855.0

 

[terraformer]

Terra:


You will find this verbiage repeated all over the net in NFA FAQs
http://www.lmsdefense.com/forum/index.php?topic=1855.0

The registered part would need to be registered AFTER THE FACT. So no permission, that seems to jibe with what I thought. But if it was destroyed in the making, no clarity there. I hate broad and far reaching regs.

 

[cekim]

The registered part would need to be registered AFTER THE FACT. So no permission, that seems to jibe with what I thought. But if it was destroyed in the making, no clarity there. I hate broad and far reaching regs.

If it was destroyed prior to becoming a machine gun or "readily converted" then it never "came into being"... But as with so much of ATF law, its more a function of whether they've decided to test to see if you are a witch by putting an iron on your tongue to see if it swells...

YMMV is putting it lightly...

 

[KBCraig]

Add rubber bands and duct-tape and the right "person of interest"... Yes... and charges of NFA violations will follow

Yep: hitting a round with a hammer doesn't make a "firearm", it makes a bang.

Here's how ATF defines a "firearm" in 27 CFR 478:

Firearm. Any weapon, including a starter gun, which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive; the frame or receiver of any such weapon; any firearm muffler or firearm silencer; or any destructive device; but the term shall not include an antique firearm. In the case of a licensed collector, the term shall mean only curios and relics.

Your vice and hammer wouldn't qualify. An Airsoft rifle that you managed to stuff a cartridge into and make go "bang", would.

 

[MasterShinken]

as an airsmith with lots of experience customizing airsoft guns, they wont hold up, and wont fit realy gun parts. not meant for it. they ahve some parts that are interchangable, but even the magwells are different sized. not gonna happen.

 

[Kevlar]

ATF Dodges FOIA, Still Has Seized BB Guns

It was only a month ago that a bizarre story broke in the Pacific Northwest, as Customs and Border Protection (CBP) officers trumpeted their seizure of what they claimed were more than two dozen machine guns disguised as toys.

The problem with the CBP claim was that the items seized were 16 WE TTI (WE Tech) M4A1 and 14 WE TTI (WE Tech) M4 CQBR gas blowback Airsoft rifles that shoot plastic BBs.

They really were toys.

But instead of admitting they can’t tell a toy gun from a real one, CBP turned these Airsoft rifles over to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF), and the agency agreed that these pot-metal made, plastic BB-shooting plinkers were honest-to-God firearms.

To put it mildly, things got interesting...

http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/agents...l-has-seized-bb-guns-part-iv/?singlepage=true

 

[weekendracer]

http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/agents...l-has-seized-bb-guns-part-iv/?singlepage=true

It was only a month ago that a bizarre story broke in the Pacific Northwest, as Customs and Border Protection (CBP) officers trumpeted their seizure of what they claimed were more than two dozen machine guns disguised as toys

Great, a bunch of blue suiters couldn't tell the difference. If I read that right, CBP turned them over to ATF.

As for Mythbusters, couldn't they contract out to a 'real' manufacturer to try and modify the device? They go offsite all the time to test stuff. They could visit Colt/Bushy/Sig and have them do it.

 

[offcamber]

Thats a sweet looking toy....wish I had one as a kid

 

[theGringo]

http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/agents...l-has-seized-bb-guns-part-iv/?singlepage=true

Great article. Thanks. Getting the truth out of the Feds is like pulling teeth, I tell ya. I expect that ATF will quickly get to the root of it.

 

[dixidawg]

Airsoft easily converted to AR???????

Here we go.... Any bets what new laws will get proposed because of this???????

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/05/06/exclusive-toy-gun-sold-easily-turned-real-thing/

EXCLUSIVE: Toy Gun Sold in U.S. Can Easily be Converted to the Real Thing

 

[atilla]

http://www.northeastshooters.com/vb...F-hard-at-work-seizing...-toys?highlight=toys

 

[upStomp]

Here we go.... Any bets what new laws will get proposed because of this???????

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/05/06/exclusive-toy-gun-sold-easily-turned-real-thing/

EXCLUSIVE: Toy Gun Sold in U.S. Can Easily be Converted to the Real Thing

Unless I see it done, I'm not buyin' it (literally or figuratively ).

ETA: Couldn't you swap out the words "Airsoft rifle" for "vacuum cleaner" and still have the same potential outcome? The receiver is one of the least complex components of an AR. I'd think a patient and talented tradesman could probably chisel a moderately-usable receiver out of hardwood.

 

[firestorm]

Unless I see it done, I'm not buyin' it (literally or figuratively ).

ETA: Couldn't you swap out the words "Airsoft rifle" for "vacuum cleaner" and still have the same potential outcome? The receiver is one of the least complex components of an AR. I'd think a patient and talented tradesman could probably chisel a moderately-usable receiver out of hardwood.

Honestly, it wouldn't even really take talent. If you had a real one to work off of, it would just be a mater of taking the time to make it correctly talent or not.

 

[mass]

Doesn't matter if it could function as a firearm or not. It's black and it's scary looking.

 

[Batbox]

this means that i can finally get an upper to turn my stupid AR into a real airsoft rifle, right?

 

[cekim]

this means that i can finally get an upper to turn my stupid AR into a real airsoft rifle, right?

No, they've now made airsoft NFA. Constructive possession rules apply.

 

[atilla]

it's official: they are no longer toys (and haven't been since may 19th!).

http://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/2010/06/07/atf-decrees-an-airsoft-rifle-a-real-firearm/

at the end of the letter they even state that they are now confiscating the sample. to the best of my knowledge this has only happened once before with the asahi M40 design*. should be interesting as airsoft guns are both more available now and cheaper than ever. are all the kids that own these felons now?

*

Asahi is renowned by airsoft players worldwide for their rare and controversial M40/M700. When the sales of the ended in 1993, the Japanese government collected and destroyed most of the traceable M40 and M700 models. This was due to the confirmed rumor that because of the M40's air cartridge system, the bolt could be switched out for a real steel .22 long bolt. There are only 25 of these models left in circulation and can range fom $1,500 up to $3,500 depending on the condition and modifications. The Asahi M40/M700 is the rarest airsoft gun in existence and is considered the "Holy Grail" of airsoft guns.

 

[Sir_Macadoo]

if some kids figured out how to mate an airsoft AR lower with a 'real' AR upper, and make it work, rather than persecuted, they should lead the well capping project for BP.