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Ballistics Question
- Thread starter Lynne
- Start date
TonyD
One Shot One Maggie's Drawers
Nickle said:
I found the guy who barrelled the action. He's in Saline, MI. Douglas XX and put on about '68. The scope is actually Tasco. Free floated, glass bedded, one hole shooter.
TonyD said:Nickle said:
Not to worry, I know of his ignorance when it comes to safe functional weapons.![[wink]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/002.gif "Wink [wink]")
And, a poor shooter should stick to a club until attaining satisfactory marksmanship skills.
You're right my HK and SIG are pretty dangerous for me to operate.
TonyD
One Shot One Maggie's Drawers
derek said:TonyD said:Nickle said:
Not to worry, I know of his ignorance when it comes to safe functional weapons.
And, a poor shooter should stick to a club until attaining satisfactory marksmanship skills.
You're right my HK and SIG are pretty dangerous for me to operate.
I've seen you shoot both. Don't forget, I own HK, also.
I am new here so first I say hello. I have seen a case where a 9mm hydrashock clooged when going through a down filled coat. The round didnt expand to full potential although it did stop the suspect.
TonyD
One Shot One Maggie's Drawers
sal said:
First, welcome. Second, yes, that has happened. Keep in mind that the failure to stop the suspect probably had more to do with shot placement than the round expanding a few 1,000th of inch larger. That is the key.
You can't shoot someone in the elbow with a super-bullet and kill them dead in their tracks. (Including the infamous and awesome .45)
The suspect was actually killed with that round. Sorry if I made it sound different. It was one shot and it struck the individual in the center of the chest. As for particulars I believe the round was 147gr. There is nothing wrong with the hydrashock and as Tony said it depends on shot placement and what you are shooting . Loose clothing slow down the penetration more so than tight fitting clothing. The only thing I suggest with defense ammo is to change out the rounds with every season change so that you are changing every three months. Also what I always did was to unload all my mags once a week so that I was not loading the same rounds into the chamber over and over. Getting back to the shooting I apologize for not remembering too much as it was 9 years ago. All i can say is that the individual was heavy set and wearing a heavy down coat.
TonyD
One Shot One Maggie's Drawers
sal - I have to disagree with you on a couple points. Loose or tight fitting clothing won't really cause much difference in most of today's modern defensive loads. The only one we saw a problem with was the HydraShocks but had more to do with glass than clothing. Again, it was an expansion problem with a team that needed max penetration and expansion from head shots in a hostage rescue scenario and means a lot less in a defensive situation.
There is no need to change out your ammo every three months, either. You point about loading the same round in the chamber after practice has some validity but in the opposite direction. We used to mark the round that was chambered and made sure it was the same round loaded into the chamber every time. The reason being because this round tends to get set back in the case somewhat and can cause a failure to feed if it ends being the third round in the stack. You also need to make sure that if it starts getting set back too far that it is disgarded so it won't cause chamber pressure problems.
I continue to load, and use, Black Talon's from 15 years ago. Ammo will not go bad if it's always been stored properly. Hope this clears up a few things.
There is no need to change out your ammo every three months, either. You point about loading the same round in the chamber after practice has some validity but in the opposite direction. We used to mark the round that was chambered and made sure it was the same round loaded into the chamber every time. The reason being because this round tends to get set back in the case somewhat and can cause a failure to feed if it ends being the third round in the stack. You also need to make sure that if it starts getting set back too far that it is disgarded so it won't cause chamber pressure problems.
I continue to load, and use, Black Talon's from 15 years ago. Ammo will not go bad if it's always been stored properly. Hope this clears up a few things.
Tony, in regards to the loose clothing I should probably clarify my statement. Also I am going on Info. that was provided to me. With regards to loose clothing it was shown that if you were to wear a loose fitting winter clothing and under garments that it tended to slow the penetration and expansion somewhat. As for changing ammo out the ammo every three months it is something that I do. It was recommended that duty ammo be swapped out every six months. When carrying you are not just exposing the ammo different weather elements such as humidity ,rain and such but you are also handling the ammo to your body oils and such when handling it frequently has an effect on ammo.
As for the swapping out the rounds for the first round into the chamber and the setback of the round. If you change the rounds out you will not have to worry about the setback but then again when I was carrying a nine I would have 46 rounds to swap out of the magazines. Also with the setback with the same round, wouldnt that effect the ballistics of the round? Also I am going on info that was provided to me by a lt. that I once worked with who was the senior instructor concerning the loose clothing.
As for the swapping out the rounds for the first round into the chamber and the setback of the round. If you change the rounds out you will not have to worry about the setback but then again when I was carrying a nine I would have 46 rounds to swap out of the magazines. Also with the setback with the same round, wouldnt that effect the ballistics of the round? Also I am going on info that was provided to me by a lt. that I once worked with who was the senior instructor concerning the loose clothing.
dwarven1
Lonely Mountain Arms
Sal, welcome.
Sorry to nitpick, but the quote you have in your sig file was never really said by Hitler. It's an urban legend; it was debunked some time ago on alt.folklore.urban.
Sorry to nitpick, but the quote you have in your sig file was never really said by Hitler. It's an urban legend; it was debunked some time ago on alt.folklore.urban.
TonyD
One Shot One Maggie's Drawers
sal,
Again, loose clothing will have a minute effect on penetration if it is just normal clothing. You research the FBI stats and othe ballistic testing organizations for more.
Switching out duty ammo that has a lot of exposure to the elements makes more sense. I still think every three months is a waste, but if your department is footing the bill, (read - taxpayers) great. Swap it out and get a good practice session with the old stuff.
Now, the chambered round. A round that gets chambered will get setback somewhat when it chambers. How much depends upon a number of things. If you don't mark that round, how do you know you're not chambering it three or four times, then it ends up as number 3 in the stack one day when you actually need it and it fails to feed?
By knowing which round it is and using it in the manner I've described, you'll be able to inspect it and discard it if gets setback too far that may create a pressure problem. Do you really think there would be that much ballistic change to effect the round in the average 3 - 7 yard gun battle? It might be enough to pull you out of the X ring at 50 yards if you were shooting Bullseye.
Also, why would you be unloading and reloading the firearm and magazines so often? That is the quickest way to wear out magazine springs.
Again, loose clothing will have a minute effect on penetration if it is just normal clothing. You research the FBI stats and othe ballistic testing organizations for more.
Switching out duty ammo that has a lot of exposure to the elements makes more sense. I still think every three months is a waste, but if your department is footing the bill, (read - taxpayers) great. Swap it out and get a good practice session with the old stuff.
Now, the chambered round. A round that gets chambered will get setback somewhat when it chambers. How much depends upon a number of things. If you don't mark that round, how do you know you're not chambering it three or four times, then it ends up as number 3 in the stack one day when you actually need it and it fails to feed?
By knowing which round it is and using it in the manner I've described, you'll be able to inspect it and discard it if gets setback too far that may create a pressure problem. Do you really think there would be that much ballistic change to effect the round in the average 3 - 7 yard gun battle? It might be enough to pull you out of the X ring at 50 yards if you were shooting Bullseye.
Also, why would you be unloading and reloading the firearm and magazines so often? That is the quickest way to wear out magazine springs.
TonyD said:
Tony, I was under the impression (mainly because someone who's been involved with guns for eons told me) that leaving rounds in a mag will (and keeping the spring compressed for so long) do more harm to the spring that actually using it repeatedly. Is that not the case?
(BTW - when I changed my carry ammo to practice ammo and back, I always wipe my prints off the casing before I reload them so the oil/salt/ick won't do any harm to the rounds.)
TonyD
One Shot One Maggie's Drawers
Lynne said:
I used to think the same thing. However, it's apparently been demonstrated that leaving them loaded will not do damage and the continued use of compressing / decpmpressing is how they wear out.
I use one set of magazines for practice and leave the carry stuff alone.
JimConway
Instructor
I am aware of some police officers in Northern NH and VT that carry HPs in the summer and only Ball in the winter. I understand that they have had experiences like TonyD, where extremely heavy outdoor clothing seriously degraded the bullet penetration. I think that I remember Mas Ayoub mentioning this in one of his many articles in one of the gun mags.
I spoke with another person who remembered the test that my lt. was referring to. There was something missing along the lines when the info was passed on. What was said was heavy loose clothing may slow down expansion of the round. This pertained to a certain round that they were evaluating. (We went with the hydrashock.)
The gelatin block is covered with four layers of clothing: one layer of cotton T-shirt material (48 threads per inch); one layer of cotton shirt material (80 threads per inch); a 10 ounce down comforter in a cambric shell cover (232 threads per inch); and one layer of 13 ounce cotton denim (50 threads per inch). This simulates typical cold weather wear. The block is shot at ten feet, measured from the muzzle to the front of the block. This test was done at 10 and 20 yards.
I apologize for the info. but please dont tell the bride I made a mistake.
Here is a link that will show the expansion and penetration of rounds into bare and clothed gelatin. http://www.firearmstactical.com/ammo_data/9mm.htm
In regards to the magazines I was taught that by leaving the rounds in them you were weakening them by applying constant pressure and never allowing the spring to expand as they are designed to do. By emptying them you are allowing the metal to relax.
The gelatin block is covered with four layers of clothing: one layer of cotton T-shirt material (48 threads per inch); one layer of cotton shirt material (80 threads per inch); a 10 ounce down comforter in a cambric shell cover (232 threads per inch); and one layer of 13 ounce cotton denim (50 threads per inch). This simulates typical cold weather wear. The block is shot at ten feet, measured from the muzzle to the front of the block. This test was done at 10 and 20 yards.
I apologize for the info. but please dont tell the bride I made a mistake.
Here is a link that will show the expansion and penetration of rounds into bare and clothed gelatin. http://www.firearmstactical.com/ammo_data/9mm.htm
In regards to the magazines I was taught that by leaving the rounds in them you were weakening them by applying constant pressure and never allowing the spring to expand as they are designed to do. By emptying them you are allowing the metal to relax.
I decided to call Smith & Wesson regarding the magazines. They told me that if you are going to keep your magazines loaded all the time that it is best to leave it short a couple of rounds. By leaving the mag short a couple the spring will not be compressed all the way. With a full mag loaded all the time the spring will take a set position and thus become weakened. An analogy to this situation is when stepping on carpet and when you remove your foot the carpet comes back to shape but when you leave something heavy on carpet for a period of time the carpet is slow to react. I know there is a difference between the carpet and a mag spring but this was the analogy used. So if you are to carry a full load in your magazines it is best to empty them and let the spring relax otherwise just leave a couple of rounds out. Another thing that was suggested is if you have the same gun for a period of time is to change the mag springs out every couple of years. They are usually around $4.00 so it is a inexpensive maintenance item.
TonyD
One Shot One Maggie's Drawers
Keep in mind what a manufacturer sells and says is not always in the best interest of the consumer. The same was done with barrel break-in procedures that only serve to shorten the life of the barrel so you'll have to replace it sooner.
Keeping the spring compressed will not shorten the life of the spring NEARLY as quickly as loading and unloading a magazine.
If you want analogies, heres one:
Take three pieces of relatively thin solid wire. Leave one straight and lay it on a table. Take another piece and bend it 90 degrees and lay it on the table beside the first piece.
Take the third piece and bend it 90 degrees to the left, then 90 degrees to right. Lay it beside the other two but do this bending once each day. See which one breaks first!
Keeping the spring compressed will not shorten the life of the spring NEARLY as quickly as loading and unloading a magazine.
If you want analogies, heres one:
Take three pieces of relatively thin solid wire. Leave one straight and lay it on a table. Take another piece and bend it 90 degrees and lay it on the table beside the first piece.
Take the third piece and bend it 90 degrees to the left, then 90 degrees to right. Lay it beside the other two but do this bending once each day. See which one breaks first!
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I agree with Tony here, largely because I have seen (but probably could never find it again) data from some tests (including some "unintentional") that indicate that leaving the springs compressed (loaded mag) is the least harmful condition.
Info from very well respected sources such as LTC Santose, who found some mags that he had left loaded from the Vietnam era (both 1911 and M16/AR15) and recently re-discovered them (empirical data). Some others had some actual scientific tests run on springs (scientific data) that came to the same conclusion.
Now here is a "mixed view" from Wolff GunSprings and this might explain why the differing views may all be correct. [I'm not sure that I buy this yet, but it is an interesting viewpoint.]
From Wolff GunSprings website (FAQ):
http://www.gunsprings.com/1ndex.html
Info from very well respected sources such as LTC Santose, who found some mags that he had left loaded from the Vietnam era (both 1911 and M16/AR15) and recently re-discovered them (empirical data). Some others had some actual scientific tests run on springs (scientific data) that came to the same conclusion.
Now here is a "mixed view" from Wolff GunSprings and this might explain why the differing views may all be correct. [I'm not sure that I buy this yet, but it is an interesting viewpoint.]
From Wolff GunSprings website (FAQ):
http://www.gunsprings.com/1ndex.html
I am not one to be afraid of getting corrected. The Wolf data could be right
but could also be thier way of selling springs. What I found from different sites including one that had a metal expert that it also has to do with the quality of the material used. What it stated was that high quality materials in a magazine and spring can be left loaded. I could not find the sight with the metalurgist on it but here is an article that made sense. This article also states that they were told by Smith customer service that you can keep them loaded indefinitely. Makes me wonder what type of training these people have in their products. Kind of makes me wonder what type of knowledge these S&W people have on their product
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_163_27/ai_99130369#continue.
So from what I gather from my browsing is that if you carry you mags check and rotate the ammo and make sure you have a good quality magazine and dont buy cheap ones for a carry weapon.
but could also be thier way of selling springs. What I found from different sites including one that had a metal expert that it also has to do with the quality of the material used. What it stated was that high quality materials in a magazine and spring can be left loaded. I could not find the sight with the metalurgist on it but here is an article that made sense. This article also states that they were told by Smith customer service that you can keep them loaded indefinitely. Makes me wonder what type of training these people have in their products. Kind of makes me wonder what type of knowledge these S&W people have on their product
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_163_27/ai_99130369#continue.
So from what I gather from my browsing is that if you carry you mags check and rotate the ammo and make sure you have a good quality magazine and dont buy cheap ones for a carry weapon.
I wasnt sure where to put this. For those who are interested S&W will start shipping out the M&P in J anuary and MAss. Should have it about a month later. Then again that came from the Smith rep that told me about the spring.
