Ballistics Question

Lynne

Lynne

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Okay - you carry JHP ammo in your .40, but it's friggin cold outside, and the perp that decides to come after you is wearing a thick sweater and insulated jacket, and maybe even a thermol shirt under the sweater.

Would the extra clothing inhibit the ammo from performing at it's peak, and, if so, is it better to carry non-HP ammo?
 
In my limited, though researched, understanding, that hollow point
won't be hollow the moment it gets plugged up with the material
you'd be shooting through. I would think that the bigger issue is does
the load you are using have sufficient power to get through that much
clothing and still have sufficient energy to penetrate and expand? I have
been giving this a fair amount of thought myself and I am strating to look
for a 10mm or .45 caliber replacement for my current carry gun (6906).
I believe that a hot .40 would do the trick, also ...

F
 
The FBI ballistics tests clad the gelatin with denim and other clothing to simulate these conditions.

There was a website with the data on it but last I looked I'm not sure that it was still there or not. The data was old and bullet design technology has not been standing still, so the data value may only be general if you do find it.
 
I shot a wounded and running deer with a .40 S&W. Unfortunately I hit the animal in the hind quarters. The pistol was loaded with a mix of Federal 180 gr Hydra-shok and Remington 155 gr H.P. So as to which round hit I cannot say. To continue, the bullet passed completely through the deer and left an exit wound big enough to stick three fingers in. A very messy wound indeed. I don't think that clothing will provide much of a hindrance to this round expansion or not.
 
Lynne said:
Okay - you carry JHP ammo in your .40, but it's friggin cold outside, and the perp that decides to come after you is wearing a thick sweater and insulated jacket, and maybe even a thermol shirt under the sweater.

Would the extra clothing inhibit the ammo from performing at it's peak, and, if so, is it better to carry non-HP ammo?
Click to expand...

I had a case many years ago where a .45 left only a nasty bruise to a perps chest due to heavy clothing. However, as LenS said, this is dated and bullet technology has changed.

In our own tests on the Team many years ago we found Hydro-Shocks to clog up going through windshield glass and not expand on many occassions. Again, dated and non-scientific.

.40 and 9mm both seem to have enough velocity to make penetration. I don't think using hard-ball is any advantage. At the least, the hollow point may clog and act as a hard ball, may have some expansion, or expand fully. The hard-ball will always be a hard-ball and not expand.
 
Hamar said:
Double tap em! The first round clears the path, the second does the job.
Click to expand...

This brings up a point I feel is worth noting. My early career in LE was still using wheel-guns with the majority of training and qual's being a series of double-taps. It's was one of the hardest habits and mental blocks to break.
 
Hamar said:
Double tap em! The first round clears the path, the second does the job.
Click to expand...

Given that the perp hasn't moved and your able to reacquire the exact same spot for the round to enter. Given the circumstances, I highly doubt that would happen.
 
Still from what the Box O truth tells me, a JHP against a heavily clothed target will act very much like a FMJ...so I'd just stick with the JHP ammo, and just remember to keep shooting untill the target is down.

-Weer'd Beard
 
TonyD said:
I had a case many years ago where a .45 left only a nasty bruise to a perps chest due to heavy clothing. However, as LenS said, this is dated and bullet technology has changed.

In our own tests on the Team many years ago we found Hydro-Shocks to clog up going through windshield glass and not expand on many occassions. Again, dated and non-scientific.

.40 and 9mm both seem to have enough velocity to make penetration. I don't think using hard-ball is any advantage. At the least, the hollow point may clog and act as a hard ball, may have some expansion, or expand fully. The hard-ball will always be a hard-ball and not expand.
Click to expand...

Thanks Tony (and Len too) - that's basically what I thought, but I wasn't able to find anything in the few ammo sites I checked that talked about it. Worst case (or best case, depending on which end you're on), a really bad bruise in the "center mass" area will at least cause him to pause.
 
Weer'd Beard said:
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot8.htm

I don't know if carrying FMJ rounds would either be better, or make a difference.

Another option is to stagger your clip with JHP and FMJ rounds.

-Weer'd Beard
Click to expand...

I just noticed (duh!) the web site Weer'd - that was pretty cool.
 
There was a test run by some folks on the Kel-Tec boards a few years ago regarding carry ammo for .32 autos. Basically, a heavy leather jacket would stop just about every hollowpoint, but some of the more potent ball got through just fine.

Hmmmmm.

Get one of those motorcycle kevlar T-shirts to cover targets for IDPA? (^_^)
 
Well, about the worst JHPs will do, in any REASONABLE caliber (you can use a 32 ACP for self defense, I won't) is about the same as FMJ. Clogging the cavity of the hollow point doesn't really prevent expansion, since Nosler Ballistic Tip rifle bullets do work.

The bottom line is if you're using a 380 or 9mm, penetration may be marginal, but if you're using a 40 or 45, I seriously doubt if there's a significant downside to JHPs. For the record, my carry gun is a Glock 19 (yup, 9mm) and I use Mag Tech ammo, with NASTY hollow points.
 
derek said:
Tony you carry a Glock 9mm too right?
Click to expand...

Yes, and 9mm penatration is NOT marginal. It's well over the 12 inch FBI minimum mainly due to its velocity. Some of the older slower .45's were marginal but I think most modern .45's are a tad over 1,000 fps now. Around 1,045, I think. Nickle may have more accurate spec's on that.
 
I couldn't help it. [twisted]

glockhandgrenade.jpg
 
TonyD said:
Yes, and 9mm penatration is NOT marginal. It's well over the 12 inch FBI minimum mainly due to its velocity. Some of the older slower .45's were marginal but I think most modern .45's are a tad over 1,000 fps now. Around 1,045, I think. Nickle may have more accurate spec's on that.
Click to expand...

I don't much care what the FBI does, but again, I'm thinking perps wearing heavy clothing and other equipment (read as military). I find the 9mm is indeed marginal (under that scenario) IF you're not a good shot (like my Battery Commander). A good shot can get the job done with a 22 LR. So, that being said, yeah I use a 9mm. If I was to go up against a tough foe, I'd take my 1911A1 for sure, but, I shoot the 9 a lot better. I easily qualify Sharpshooter with my M9.

Tony, 45 ACP with 185 JHP is about the velocity you mentioned. I use that load in the 45. 230 FMJs are down about 900-950 or so.
 
What the FBI (and other ballistic testing organizations) do is the closest we have to determining needed penetration.

Military, and other, situations you mention is a different scenario. Everyone needs to keep in mind ALL handguns loads are marginal. You cannot take whats happening on the battle field and apply it civillian defensive applications.

Where we get our peak performance in handgun loads is bullet design vs. mass. The military has no such benefit. They have to use the worst round made - mil. hard ball.

The major factor (as you said) is shot placement with ANY round. (As long as that round has the ability for proper penetration).

I evaluated several factors when I determined what I needed to trust my life on and the Glock 19, 9mm (or similar make) is what I decided was the best.
 
Tony, you've got to forgive him. He doesn't know yet that a Glock is stronger than several other handguns, including the 1911A1. A Glock is a very safe gun, when and IF properly treated, and used with PROPER (safe) ammo.

So everyone knows, the reason I mention military use is so you know, like us vet's do, that the 9mm may be marginal in a military application, but fully functional in a civilian application, assuming the shooter is a decent shot. A poor shooter should not use a handgun for defensive purposes.
 
Nickle said:
Tony, you've got to forgive him. He doesn't know yet that a Glock is stronger than several other handguns, including the 1911A1. A Glock is a very safe gun, when and IF properly treated, and used with PROPER (safe) ammo.

So everyone knows, the reason I mention military use is so you know, like us vet's do, that the 9mm may be marginal in a military application, but fully functional in a civilian application, assuming the shooter is a decent shot. A poor shooter should not use a handgun for defensive purposes.
Click to expand...

Not to worry, I know of his ignorance when it comes to safe functional weapons. [wink]

And, a poor shooter should stick to a club until attaining satisfactory marksmanship skills. :D
 
TonyD said:
And, a poor shooter should stick to a club until attaining satisfactory marksmanship skills. :D
Click to expand...

My father (an FFL) advocates they use a WW2 vintage Kar98K Mauser, with a laminated stock, and the bolt removed. Grasp the muzzle and SWING.
 
Nickle said:
TonyD said:
And, a poor shooter should stick to a club until attaining satisfactory marksmanship skills. :D
Click to expand...

My father (an FFL) advocates they use a WW2 vintage Kar98K Mauser, with a laminated stock, and the bolt removed. Grasp the muzzle and SWING.
Click to expand...

Yep, can also be subsituted with 03A3 if a 98 isn't available.
 

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