dwarven1
Lonely Mountain Arms
Exactly what I'm saying - he needs a month or so to contemplate a store full of merchandise and empty of customers. That just might change his attitude.
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Bass Pro-On the wrong side of the AG already?
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Nothing at all, as long as you have an LTC Class A.
![[angry]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/008.gif "Angry [angry]")
Northeast Trading Company
Ok, well you don't know me very well, but I can tell you all first hand that Ted Oven adminitted (even bragged) to me about calling the AG's office to complain when I arrived in his store last week.
There's no doubt in my mind who called and there shouldn't be any doubt left in yours either. Bottom line? It would have been found out sooner or later and closed down...
If you were in business trying to survive in this h!@#hole of a State you'd hang anyone else circumventing regulations to survive too. Business is business...doesn't mean we have to like it.
Ok, well you don't know me very well, but I can tell you all first hand that Ted Oven adminitted (even bragged) to me about calling the AG's office to complain when I arrived in his store last week.
There's no doubt in my mind who called and there shouldn't be any doubt left in yours either. Bottom line? It would have been found out sooner or later and closed down...
If you were in business trying to survive in this h!@#hole of a State you'd hang anyone else circumventing regulations to survive too. Business is business...doesn't mean we have to like it.
Now, that's some twisted logic.![[rolleyes]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/042.gif "Roll Eyes [rolleyes]")
It seems straightforward to me. Let's break it down for you:
1. The poster asserts that this is a very unfavorable state to do business in (implicitly referring to the contradictory and near-incomprehensible laws controlling the merchandise in question);
2. The dealer in question views a new business NOT complying with said laws as having an unfair advantage, due to the sale of goods said dealer cannot sell w/o violating those laws; and
3. Said dealer alerts The Powers That Be to that violation to eliminate the unfair advantage said new store enjoys.
So, who's the bigger bad guy and is that business decision a crime against the LTC-carrying public?
I believe that is the point of the allegedly "twisted logic" complained of.
Guys, lets at least try to be a bit civil to each other. There are
a few people that "kinda agree" with what the guy did and a shitload
of us that don't, but there's no use having that particular argument
repeatedly in the thread- especially not when a reader can click
4 pages back or whatever and see the same arguments. The most
we can do in that regard is agree to disagree.
-Mike
a few people that "kinda agree" with what the guy did and a shitload
of us that don't, but there's no use having that particular argument
repeatedly in the thread- especially not when a reader can click
4 pages back or whatever and see the same arguments. The most
we can do in that regard is agree to disagree.
-Mike
That is at least as large a problem as the real laws are. Dealers who either don't know the rules they operate under or, far worse, who try to be "super strict" to suck up to the AG and/or BATFE show just how successful the intimidation program is.
Need examples? Here you go:
1. Requiring an LTC for a mere 10/22;
2. Requiring an LTC/A for a "large capacity" long arm;
3. Refusing to transfer a bare frame; and
4. Requiring an FA-10 for a bare frame.
As Walt Kelly sagely observed, We have met the enemy and he is US!
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What's your answer to a dealer pushing the AG to shut down all mail-order sales to MA?
Do you (any of you/us) buy from Amazon.com? Why can they sell into MA? What if <name your local vendor> pushed the AG to prohibit sales of books, videos, etc. by mail-order vendors to MA residents?
[Since ammo/components are evil and we need licenses, I have no problem in the AG demanding that the vendors get a copy of our LTC/FID first and ship with "adult signature required".]
What's the difference wrt transactions with MA residents between Amazon/BMG/etc. and any out-of-state ammo dealer (other than proving eligibility via LTC/FID)?
How about a dealer reporting BP for selling ammo on the floor? What gun shop have you been in (in MA) that has all ammo locked up? This is inventing "laws"/"rules"/"regulations" where they don't exist, just to cause trouble for a competitor.
MOST MA Dealers would never think to do what this dealer did. Not for a second would someone like Carl ever think to drop a dime on a competitor like this. He just meets or beats his competition with "customer service", something that a big store (even like BP) can't do because of corporate rules/policies.
Do you (any of you/us) buy from Amazon.com? Why can they sell into MA? What if <name your local vendor> pushed the AG to prohibit sales of books, videos, etc. by mail-order vendors to MA residents?
[Since ammo/components are evil and we need licenses, I have no problem in the AG demanding that the vendors get a copy of our LTC/FID first and ship with "adult signature required".]
What's the difference wrt transactions with MA residents between Amazon/BMG/etc. and any out-of-state ammo dealer (other than proving eligibility via LTC/FID)?
How about a dealer reporting BP for selling ammo on the floor? What gun shop have you been in (in MA) that has all ammo locked up? This is inventing "laws"/"rules"/"regulations" where they don't exist, just to cause trouble for a competitor.
MOST MA Dealers would never think to do what this dealer did. Not for a second would someone like Carl ever think to drop a dime on a competitor like this. He just meets or beats his competition with "customer service", something that a big store (even like BP) can't do because of corporate rules/policies.
Is this a rhetorical question, or are you under the impression I owe you something?
Nor have I. It's the licensing itself which is problematic.
Don't stop there - it's ANY mail order/on-line transaction which, per the UCC (itself incorporated into the MGL) occurs in the SELLER'S state. Hence the lack of sales tax on such purchases.
Garys
NES Member
A better example would be why we can't buy wine through the mail. The liquor distributors have been fighting that one tooth and nail for years.
Gary
Much to the amusement - and profit - of the NH Liquor Stores.
Gotta love a state that purports to worship the individual and oppose the growth of government not only getting into the liquor business, but then setting up a monopoly to peddle booze to its neighbors.
Garys
NES Member
Much to the amusement - and profit - of the NH Liquor Stores.
Gotta love a state that purports to worship the individual and oppose the growth of government not only getting into the liquor business, but then setting up a monopoly to peddle booze to its neighbors.
Could be part of the reason that they don't have Income Tax or Sales Tax. <G> The amazing thing is that a state run entity actually sells something inexpensively.
Gary
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You were contending that since BP did something wrong, it was OK for a competitor to blow the whistle on them.
My point was . . . how do you square this with the allegation that the same dealer blew the whistle on many mail-order houses selling gun-related items to MA Residents?
Actually, I was simply breaking down another poster's point for those who could not - or would not - acknowledge that issue.
1. Whether the dealer in question actually "blew the whistle" - or even needed to - was addressed in detail; and
2. I've already posted on that point. Read up.
The "buisness is business" argument is a ducky that doesn't washie in my world. This is nothing less in my mind than a narcissistic act by a dealer who likes to play both sides of the fence to not only serve his best interest, but stab the rest of us squarely in the back....The fact that myself and many of you can no longer call MidwayUsa and buy reloading components, or catch a deal on some .308 could very well be directly a result of a gun dealer in collusion with the very Attorney General so seemingly hell-bent on trampling on our rights....
And if I were out in the woods alone and no one was watching it'd be ok to spotlight as well eh? All about survival and not ethics, screw my fellow hunters and wildlife.
This guy is a parasite and nothing more.
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The AG never demanded such a thing, and never indicated that a copy of an LTC/FID would preclude prosecution. The issue was "selling in MA without a MA license to sell ammunition".
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And apparently one of the dealers servicing the shooting community felt that such activity needed to be restricted. If this was indeed the case, he should be prepared to explain to his customers why he feels he can service them in the manner a bull services a cow and still expect his customer to come back.
It really doesn't matter whether what he has been doing is right or wrong.
What matters is what the customer wants, and its pretty obvious that we don't want dealers sucking up to the AG or stabbing other dealers in the back.
What matters is what the customer wants, and its pretty obvious that we don't want dealers sucking up to the AG or stabbing other dealers in the back.
What does your analogy have to do with the current topic? I see the "survival" angle, but what he (calling the AG) did wasn't illegal like in your example. You analogy doesn't apply.
Now, that's some twisted logic.
Twisted logic? Put yourself in the shoes of a gun shop owner in Massachusetts who is competing for your hard earned dollars and then think about it.
![[thinking]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/010.gif "Thinking [thinking]")
Would you want a dealer - especially one the size of BP - being able to not only potentially undercut your prices and offer things you can't like a "gun return policy" as well as allowing them to knowlingly sell firearms you cannot?
Good grief....twisted logic.
Now one could argue (and many have) that calling the AG instead of calling BP was the right thing to do...dealer to dealer. However, have you ever tried to call an organization like BP and gotten to someone who could actually do something or understand what the heck it was you were talking about? Yeah...fun isn't it?
Just like if I called the local PD and told them that you drove 46 MPH in a 40 MPH zone. What I am doing is not illegal, but still a shitty thing to do. Why should I turn you in? If you speed long enough the police will catch you on their own. But in the mean time, no harm is being done with you driving 46 in a 40. Now if you were doing 80 in a 40, that would be different, but I think that would be the equivalent as BP selling post ban machine guns to any who wants one.
Twisted logic? Put yourself in the shoes of a gun shop owner in Massachusetts who is competing for your hard earned dollars and then think about it.
Would you want a dealer - especially one the size of BP - being able to not only potentially undercut your prices and offer things you can't like a "gun return policy" as well as allowing them to knowlingly sell firearms you cannot?
Good grief....twisted logic.
OK, I'm going to chime in here because I'm a marketing guy and over the last 27 years I've operated (successfully) on both ends of the big/small company continuum. This is going to be a long post.
You make some interesting points, but let's think this through. On your 2nd point "knowingly selling firearms I cannot" - If I was a competing small local retailer with a brain, I'd realize that there were huge benefits that I could realize by letting this practice go on as long as possible.
Let's say the big box store (BBS) is allowed to continue for a few more weeks, sells a whole bunch more non-EOPS firearms, and then gets whacked with huge fines. There are there are three possible results:
- The BBS pays the huge fines and probably does what every other BBS in Mass has done: Stops selling handguns. If they decide to keep selling EOPS handguns, they've been hurt financially. I win either way.
- The BBS fights the AG and spends a bundle of money on legal fees, and wins. Now I'll be able to sell the same guns. I know that I can compete with them on price. (This is true - I've looked at their prices)
- The BBS fights the AG, spends big money on legal fees, and loses. If this happens, they almost certainly will decide to stop selling handguns in Mass. Even if they decide to continue selling EOPS handguns, my competitor has been hurt financially, and I know I can compete on price.
While all of this is going on, I call the BBS patriotic, pretend that I like what they're doing, and put up an end cap full of Glock and XD mags and KKM replacement barrels right in front of my door.
To your second point - "potentially undercutting my prices and offering things I can't" - I'll need to find a way to continue to be competitive anyway - regardless of the "non-EOPS guns thing".
One of the big advantages a small place has over a BBS is "agility".
If 5 people walk into a BBS and ask for an item that they don't stock, the corporate office is not going to begin buying it. I can, and I'll be sure to feature it in my next ad and on my website.
Speaking of websites - I'll update mine often, and make sure that my used gun inventory is updated daily. Who here doesn't check Four Seasons or Collectors regularly? A BBS can't do this.
Every night when I close my shop, I'll stop in at the BBS for a half hour or so and check things out. I'll watch what they have, and stock what they don't carry. I'll provide services that they can't (training classes, custom ordering, etc).
I'd keep an eye out for good deals on small wholesale lots from a variety of suppliers (closeouts, gov't auction lots of brass, ammo cans, etc). The BBS won't do this. When I find them, they'll be featured prominently on my website.
I'd hit this board every night to watch the pulse of my customer base, and be ready to adapt quickly.
I'd belong to every local gun club and sponsor/host as many events as I could. If I got together with my S&W rep to host "The Eddie's Gun Shop and NortheastShooters.com Smith & Wesson Day" at the Shirley Rod and Gun Club during the tax free weekend, where you could try out a bunch of S&W stuff and get special deals, how many people would show up? 100? 200? Shit, maybe I can get together with my local dealer and make this happen.
The bottom line is that he was in a no-lose situation and he screwed it up. As my cousin Fat Paulie told me years ago, "Jimmy, nobody ever got in trouble by keeping their f**king mouth shut."
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