Baxter State Park Off Limits

[Gary Slider]

I ran a search for Baxter and searched for Baxter under the Maine Header and didn't find anything so posting this. I hope it is not a duplicate.

I received an email from a Maine Resident and he talked to and received emails about Baxter State Park and why Handgunlaw.us had it listed as a place off limits while other state parks allowed carry. Here is what I received and Handgunlaw.us will be updated Friday with this info.
Here is the wording that will be on the Maine Page:

Baxter State Park (Off Limits to Permit Holders)

3. Hunting, Trapping and Fishing

3.1. Hunting and trapping are prohibited within the Park. Use or possession of any firearm, bow and arrow, sling shot, or air rifle or pistol is prohibited. Firearms may be transported through the Park if kept in a car trunk, enclosed in a case or otherwise inaccessible to use.

Note: The language in LD 1347 is specific in referring to lands administered by the Maine Department of Conservation, Bureau of Parks and Lands (BPL). Baxter State park is an administratively and financially independent State agency administered solely by the Baxter State Park Authority and consequently, it does not fall under the jurisdiction of LD 1347. (This is word for word what came from Baxter State Park)

END

3. Hunting, Trapping and Fishing header on the Maine page will be a link to the following.
http://www.baxterstateparkauthority.com/miscPages/rules.html

You can go here to read how Gov Baxter set up the park (And bought the land with his own money after he was Gov) and created the Baxter State Park Authority so that the Tax payers of Maine would not have to spend money on the park. He left a 7 million dollar trust to keep it going so this is the reason they are giving for it not falling under LD 1347. http://www.baxterstateparkauthority.com/about/aboutHistory.html

Again if this has been discussed I apologize for the duplicate. I just wanted the reasoning for it being off limits to those with a Permit.

Stay Safe,
Gary Slider
Co-Owner www.handgunlaw.us

 

[NinerMaine]

I ran a search for Baxter and searched for Baxter under the Maine Header and didn't find anything so posting this. I hope it is not a duplicate.

I received an email from a Maine Resident and he talked to and received emails about Baxter State Park and why Handgunlaw.us had it listed as a place off limits while other state parks allowed carry. Here is what I received and Handgunlaw.us will be updated Friday with this info.
Here is the wording that will be on the Maine Page:

Baxter State Park (Off Limits to Permit Holders)

3. Hunting, Trapping and Fishing

3.1. Hunting and trapping are prohibited within the Park. Use or possession of any firearm, bow and arrow, sling shot, or air rifle or pistol is prohibited. Firearms may be transported through the Park if kept in a car trunk, enclosed in a case or otherwise inaccessible to use.

Note: The language in LD 1347 is specific in referring to lands administered by the Maine Department of Conservation, Bureau of Parks and Lands (BPL). Baxter State park is an administratively and financially independent State agency administered solely by the Baxter State Park Authority and consequently, it does not fall under the jurisdiction of LD 1347. (This is word for word what came from Baxter State Park)

END

3. Hunting, Trapping and Fishing header on the Maine page will be a link to the following.
http://www.baxterstateparkauthority.com/miscPages/rules.html

You can go here to read how Gov Baxter set up the park (And bought the land with his own money after he was Gov) and created the Baxter State Park Authority so that the Tax payers of Maine would not have to spend money on the park. He left a 7 million dollar trust to keep it going so this is the reason they are giving for it not falling under LD 1347. http://www.baxterstateparkauthority.com/about/aboutHistory.html

Again if this has been discussed I apologize for the duplicate. I just wanted the reasoning for it being off limits to those with a Permit.

Stay Safe,
Gary Slider
Co-Owner www.handgunlaw.us

I was not aware of this and thank you for posting it. Here are some thoughts off the top of my head.

1. The State gave the Maine Department of Conservation, Bureau of Parks and Lands the legal authority to regulate the lands under their control. This was the legal source for their ban. It was not a state law that banned guns in state parks, but rather a rule which the Legislature allowed the Bureau to make. That makes me wonder if the Legislature also gave the same authority of rule making to the Baxter State Park Authority. If not, then any violation of their rules is not a criminal matter, but a civil one. This would put them in the same category as a private property owner. For example, the Maine Mall has a no gun policy as well. But if you are caught, all they can do is ask you to leave. You cannot be cited for a violation of the law. Further research is needed to see exactly what level of authority the Baxter State Park Authority has to make such rules.

Added: They cite the legal authority on the page you linked. It seems they have the same authority as the State Parks do to regulate and make rules.

2. Their interpretation of their own rule leaves a big legal loophole. It is under the heading of fishing, hunting and trapping. It specifically is referring to acts committed while hunting, fishing and trapping. If you are carrying a firearm unrelated to those activities, such as carrying for self defense with a CWP, then those rules do not apply to you. I realise they may still come after you and I am not a lawyer, but they must still enforce the rules and the rules do not address a permitted conceal carry.

3. Per their website, violation of their rules is not a criminal violation, but a civil one. You cannot be sent to jail. You can however, be fined up to $1,000 and be asked to leave. I would simply ignore this rule, as I did the state park rule, as I see it as a violation of both my state and federal constitutional rights. I would love to pay the fine then sue them for violating our constitutional rights.

 

[NinerMaine]

Here is the legal source for their authority. Notice, it is not a criminal offence, but a civil one.

http://www.mainelegislature.org/legis/statutes/12/title12sec903.html

Title 12: CONSERVATION
Part 2: FORESTS, PARKS, LAKES AND RIVERS
Chapter 211: STATE PARKS
Subchapter 3: BAXTER STATE PARK
§903. Rules
1. Adoption of rules. The Baxter State Park Authority may adopt rules pursuant to the Maine Administrative Procedure Act it considers necessary for the protection and safety of the public or for the proper observance of the conditions and restrictions expressed in the deeds of trust of the Baxter State Park to the State.
[ 2003, c. 452, Pt. F, §2 (NEW); 2003, c. 452, Pt. X, §2 (AFF) .]
2. Violation of rules and permits. A person who violates any of the rules of the Baxter State Park Authority or a condition of a permit issued under those rules commits a civil violation for which a fine of not more than $1,000 may be adjudged.
[ 2009, c. 644, §1 (AMD) .]
3. Destruction of structure, monument, marker or notice. A person who intentionally or knowingly mutilates, defaces or destroys any structure, monument or marker lawfully erected within the boundaries of the Baxter State Park, or any notice or rule of the Baxter State Park Authority that is posted in conformity with this section, commits a Class E crime.

 

[NinerMaine]

Here is the section of law which clearly makes the BSPA not a part of the state park system.

http://www.mainelegislature.org/legis/statutes/12/title12sec1803.html

Title 12: CONSERVATION
Part 2: FORESTS, PARKS, LAKES AND RIVERS
Chapter 220: BUREAU OF PARKS AND LANDS
Subchapter 1: GENERAL PROVISIONS
§1803. General powers and duties of the bureau

The Bureau of Parks and Lands: [1997, c. 678, §13 (NEW).]
1. Jurisdiction. Has jurisdiction, custody and control over and responsibility for managing:
A. All state parks and historic sites and national parks that are controlled and managed by the State, except Baxter State Park; [2001, c. 604, §2 (AMD).]
B. Public reserved lands, nonreserved public lands, submerged lands and intertidal lands; [2001, c. 604, §2 (AMD).]
C. The Allagash Wilderness Waterway; and [2001, c. 604, §2 (NEW).]
D. Public boating facilities acquired or constructed and maintained pursuant to subchapter IX. [2001, c. 604, §2 (NEW).]

 

[Gary Slider]

So they have the authority to make rules under Administrative rules. This make them the same as a law. Administrative rules have the authority of law.

 

[NinerMaine]

So they have the authority to make rules under Administrative rules. This make them the same as a law. Administrative rules have the authority of law.

Yes that is right. As indicated by the above posts, they have the authority to ban guns. However, violation of their rules are limited to civil violations only. It is like getting a speeding ticket. The Maine Legislature gave the same authority to the Bureau of Lands and Parks (?) and they had the same rule. LD1347 amended that authority to exclude being able to restrict CWP holders from carrying in the lands under their control. BSP is not under their control.

Did the writers of LD1347 simply not understand that they were excluding Baxter State Park. I am guessing that is the case.

So there are 4 options:

1. Avoid Baxter State Park
2. Ignore the rule, keep it concealed, and if you need to defend yourself then do so and pay the fine afterwords.
3. Convince the BSPA to rewrite their rules to be aligned with all the other state parks in Maine, plus Acadia National Park.
4. Contact your representative and have a new law to take the choice away from the BSPA. I think this is what is going to happen.

 

[Gary Slider]

This could jeopardize your carry permit/license. I can't say Ignore. Getting them or the state to change the regs would be the best path.

 

[TimMcG74]

Concealed means what?

 

[TimMcG74]

So they have the authority to make rules under Administrative rules. This make them the same as a law. Administrative rules have the authority of law.

No, they don't.

 

[Climbnsink]

Maine has some stupid, surprisingly harsh laws about carrying a gun in the woods. There are places/times where unless you are actively hunting you can't be in the woods with a gun. Makes plinking against the law.

 

[NinerMaine]

This could jeopardize your carry permit/license. I can't say Ignore. Getting them or the state to change the regs would be the best path.

Considering that we still have a very pro-gun Legislature and Governor, I would say that a very good chance exists that a year from now we will be able to carry at BSP. It should be done before the next election cycle.

I have not been to BSP in 20 years and live no where near it. It will affect me little but I will support the effort as a matter of principle. As far as ignoring the rule or not, that is a personal decision. However keep this in mind:

Article I, Section 16 of the State of Maine Constitution -- "Every citizen has a right to keep and bear arms and this right shall never be questioned."

The Constitution of the State of Maine does not exempt the BSPA. The Constitution trumps a rule making authority. My right to carry my weapon for the purposes of self-defense cannot be taken away by a rule. The rule is in and of itself a violation of the law, and we as citizens are not bound by it.

 

[NinerMaine]

Maine has some stupid, surprisingly harsh laws about carrying a gun in the woods. There are places/times where unless you are actively hunting you can't be in the woods with a gun. Makes plinking against the law.

Not exactly. Without looking the law up to be sure, I will disagree. The law states that having a weapon in the woods can be considered evidence enough that you are hunting. It does not say shall be. If you are clearly plinking in the woods, then that itself is evidence that you are not hunting. The mere fact of having a gun in the woods is not enough for a conviction with out circumstances to support the hunting claim. Walking the woods in Maine on a Sunday with a loaded rifle might be enough, but actively participating in a non-hunting activity with a gun is not.

 

[OfficerObie59]

So they have the authority to make rules under Administrative rules. This make them the same as a law. Administrative rules have the authority of law.

No, they don't.

So admin laws do not have the force of law? Or they don't have the authority to make admin rules? Either way, I say you're wrong and Gary is correct.

Sorry if that was harsh, but if you're going to contradict a statement, it's proper to provide some authority for your position.

EDIT: From Normand v. Baxter State Park Authority, 509 A.2d 640 (Me. 1986) quoting 5 M.R.S.A. § 8058 (1979 & Supp. 1985-1986): "Insofar as the court finds that a rule was improperly adopted or exceeds the rule-making authority of the agency, it shall declare the rule invalid. If the court finds that the rule was properly adopted and not in excess of the agency's rule-making authority, its substantive review of that rule shall be to determine whether the rule is arbitrary, capricious, an abuse of discretion or otherwise not in accordance with law."

Thus, if the court is barred from judicial review of the rule unless (1) the rule conflicts with the enabling statutepassed by the legislature allowing the rule, (2) was improperly adopted, (3) is "arbitrary, capricious, an abuse of discretion", or (4--not stated) is of course violative of a Constitutional provision--the 2nd AMD/Me Constitution has not yet been litigated--the rule must stand and has the force of the enabling statute until it is overruled or rescinded.

Where's the authority to back up your claim?