Best choice for compact or sub compact with pre-ban hi-caps available?

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semma

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Gun Gurus...
If you had your choice - MA restrictions aside, what would be your first selection in a new compact or sub compact 9mm or .40 that has pre-ban hi-caps available - and why? I have a Kahr PM9 and a Walther PPS - both great pistols, and highly concealable, but I am looking for a concealable with hi-cap capability. Glock 26 and 19 are on the list, but what else is out there with pre-ban's available in this format?
 
Not much other than Glocks.

Seriously though, a CCW gun is for firing a couple of shots in self defense. Get the gun you're most comfortable defending your life with, rather than basing it on magazine capacity.
 
Sig 228/229, though they are definitely not subcompact, they might be considered compact. The 228 is lighter, if that helps.
 
vellnueve said:
Not much other than Glocks.

Seriously though, a CCW gun is for firing a couple of shots in self defense. Get the gun you're most comfortable defending your life with, rather than basing it on magazine capacity.
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Yes.. seems glocks are the popular choice. To your point about accuracy and reliability, I LOVE the accuracy and trigger of the KAHR PM9. I am shockingly accurate with it, considering that I'm wearing bi-focal lenses and left-eye challenged. But (and there's always a but) the pistol is just plain finicky about ammo. I have learned to instinctively tap and rack out of neccessity with it but I've finally found a defensive round that's reliable with it (MagTech 124 gr jacketed hollow points.) Still, I've heard about the reliability of the Glocks and it makes me want the stone cold reliability. I'm not as good (or as quick) with the PPS, but I have to say it's 100 percent reliable and eats anything. Perhaps a trigger job on the PPS and more practice will keep me having to shop around. If only the PPS had more than 8 up though! After posting this, an LEO friend who just finished the Glock Armorer's course said he's convinced more than ever that their's little reason to look further. I spied a few of the pistols on your lists today at the Marlboro Gun show. For now, I'm leaning toward the Glock 27 or the Glock 26.
 
Something is wrong with your PM9. Most of them are not that picky. There is a break in period (200-300 rounds?) and then from that point onward the gun should eat anything that isn't too retarded. If you are past the break in, the gun is clean, and it has problems with things like Speer GDHPs, etc, then it needs to go back to the factory.

I would never, ever, in a million years, carry anything that magtech makes, unless it was the only thing that worked in the gun or the only choice I had. Those bullets probably don't even expand.

If you want a Glock try out a Glock 26. That said, I'd focus on fixing your PM9 first. Something is obviously wrong with it.

-Mike
 
Kahr is pretty close by - see if they can take a look at it. If you're really good with the PM9, get it fixed.

Yes, there are Glocks out there with problems too. Mainly the inciendiary kind.
 
Just wondering why you would want high cap mags for "carry"? While having the extra rounds is handy for the range, or a big shootout, inmo they make the gun harder to conceal because of handle length, and add more weight. For something you don't need to conceal carry, then bigger, the better obviously.
 
I'm off the idea of high cap mags for a carry gun. It just seems like an invitation for more trouble in this state if the worst ever happened and you had to use it. Burden of proof is on you. [rolleyes] 10's enough and if its not I guess i'll bring an extra mag and practice reloading a lot.

FWIW I have a Sig 229 and am looking in to getting a Khar PM9 for a pocket carry. 229 is super nice but a bit big to take every day.
 
Terminator03 said:
Just wondering why you would want high cap mags for "carry"? While having the extra rounds is handy for the range, or a big shootout, inmo they make the gun harder to conceal because of handle length, and add more weight. For something you don't need to conceal carry, then bigger, the better obviously.
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Uhh, none of the guns I own that take so called "hi caps" do the mags even stick out of the gun's frame, so there's no real downside to using them.

Further, there are a lot of guns which accept mags that take more than 10 rounds that are easy to conceal. (Glock 19, some of the S&W 3rd gen 9mm's immediately come to mind)

-Mike
 
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endus said:
I'm off the idea of high cap mags for a carry gun. It just seems like an invitation for more trouble in this state if the worst ever happened and you had to use it. Burden of proof is on you. [rolleyes] 10's enough and if its not I guess i'll bring an extra mag and practice reloading a lot.
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Not this crap again... [facepalm] this has been beaten to death a number of times on this forum. Intentionally crippling yourself is dumb, when the law is pretty clear, and it's also pretty clear that the state would bear the burden of proof. Why would you advocate someone run garbage in their gun when they can find the correct mag with a little bit of searching?

-Mike
 
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drgrant said:
Not this crap again... [facepalm] this has been beaten to death a number of times on this forum. Intentionally crippling yourself is dumb, when the law is pretty clear, and it's also pretty clear that the state would bear the burden of proof. Why would you advocate someone run garbage in their gun when they can find the correct mag with a little bit of searching?

-Mike
Click to expand...

Because I have absolutely no faith in the legal system of this state whatsoever.
 
Terminator03 said:
Just wondering why you would want high cap mags for "carry"? While having the extra rounds is handy for the range, or a big shootout, inmo they make the gun harder to conceal because of handle length, and add more weight. For something you don't need to conceal carry, then bigger, the better obviously.
Click to expand...

The idea is to carry the 6906 withy the stock 12 round mag that does not extend beyond the butt (with the exception of the base plate with a hook for your pinky). The 5906 mags are carried as back up; their extra length serving as an extended base pad to assist in reloading, and providing an extra 3 rounds.
 
Gammon said:
The idea is to carry the 6906 withy the stock 12 round mag that does not extend beyond the butt (with the exception of the base plate with a hook for your pinky). The 5906 mags are carried as back up; their extra length serving as an extended base pad to assist in reloading, and providing an extra 3 rounds.
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Gotcha, that makes sense. For those like myself with larger hands, that little hook on the mag base makes a big difference too. I was just asking because some are hung up on a 17 round mag being necessary for a carry gun because of their perception that more is better. I feel like if you can't get the job done in the first 10, you probably need way more practice/training.[laugh]
 
endus said:
Because I have absolutely no faith in the legal system of this state whatsoever.
Click to expand...

I don't either, but it is what it is. I'm not worried about a legal magazine making a major difference in the outcome of a self defense case, though. That concern of yours is mind numbing, even within the framework of the MA legal system. I call it "ayoob glue fumes- MA edition". [laugh]

-Mike
 
drgrant said:
I don't either, but it is what it is. I'm not worried about a legal magazine making a major difference in the outcome of a self defense case, though. That concern of yours is mind numbing, even within the framework of the MA legal system. I call it "ayoob glue fumes- MA edition". [laugh]

-Mike
Click to expand...

Yes, I realize this. I've done the reading.

If I had a gun with more definitive indicators that the mag was preban I would probably do it but as is it seems to be a tad bit tricky to tell. I was actually going to call sig and see if they *ever* produced a zipperback mag post ban (and thanks for all the info you have provided on that front), and get a hold of some of those if they did not, but honestly it just seems like more trouble than it's worth. I managed to survive multiple trips to some of the shadiest ghettos in Detroit without a gun, if I need more than 10 rounds (or 10 rounds plus another mag) then I guess it's my turn to check out.

Non carry? Rifles? I fully intend on scouring the earth for preban mags for them. Just talking about the carry piece.
 
endus said:
Yes, I realize this. I've done the reading.

If I had a gun with more definitive indicators that the mag was preban I would probably do it but as is it seems to be a tad bit tricky to tell. I was actually going to call sig and see if they *ever* produced a zipperback mag post ban (and thanks for all the info you have provided on that front), and get a hold of some of those if they did not, but honestly it just seems like more trouble than it's worth.
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You're going to go all doubting thomas on a Sig mag? [laugh] If anything, those are easy to feel comfortable about. Basically anything that's phosphated with witness holes on the back of it, that doesn't have an LE marking on the front, is more than likely preban. This includes zipper mags (really old) and zig zag backed mags. The oldest mags (way, way before the ban) also don't have a caliber (some don't even have the model, they just say SigSauer on them) marking, because there was no need for it- at one time all sig double stacks were ONLY 9mm (eg, the P226 and the P228 were the first two guns in 9mm, so the mags for these guns had no caliber marking. ) If you are really paranoid just get a P228 zipper back mag.

Note to readers: This doesn't mean a caliber or model marked mag is a bad thing, it just means that the mag is a lot older if it doesn't have it.

I say all the above as a guy who bought a crapload of known preban sig mags before the ban expired... so I know what many of them look like. (I probably still have over a dozen of them... ) I've also watched the progression of the mags chronologically. There may have been some preban mags with side witness holes, but that's the only thing I'm not sure of. Today all, or nearly all the postbans have side witness holes. I have not seen a single unmarked postban that had rear witness holes in it. They're all on the side. If there are unmarked postbans with rear witness holes in them, they've got to be pretty rare. It would stand to reason that the only mags with rear witness holes are prebans or during bans- (and during bans are all LE marked, right on the front of the mag in very small print). Hell, when the ban expired, even
in the free states it was often difficult to get unmarked postbans, because all the big vendors were flooding the market with craploads of cheap LE marked mags.

I managed to survive multiple trips to some of the shadiest ghettos in Detroit without a gun, if I need more than 10 rounds (or 10 rounds plus another mag) then I guess it's my turn to check out.
Click to expand...

If you're going to think that way, then why bother carrying a gun at all? If I felt that way, I would just leave my gun at home. I guess I just think carrying a gun that you can (legally) stuff 13-15 rounds into (depending on the follower in the mag) with a 10 round cripplemag is like driving a car around with 4 donut tires on it. It'd be one thing if we were talking about an M&P, or a SigPro, or an XD... some gun where you really don't have a choice. (Although, apparently you can jury-rig a preban Beretta 9mm mag to work in some variant of the XD9, and not compromise its viability in a Beretta, which keeps it all within the law. )

Non carry? Rifles? I fully intend on scouring the earth for preban mags for them. Just talking about the carry piece.
Click to expand...

In any SD shooting incident, there's at least a 50% chance they're going to come and clean out your house or apartment, too, so anything you weren't carrying ends up being on the table as well. So if you're gonna sniff the fumes, you might as well apply it to everything you own, or at least, everything you keep within the borders of the state.

-Mike
 
drgrant said:
If you are really paranoid just get a P228 zipper back mag.
Click to expand...

Yea, really paranoid would be an accurate description. Maybe with a few more years of owning firearms under my belt I will be less paranoid. I def don't deny that at all.

Thanks for (even more!) info on dating those. I did find some zipper backs online a while ago that I was going to try and get a hold of...maybe I will try and go down that road again. You're convincing me. Dude wanted way too much money for em anyway, maybe he's changed his mind after another month or so with no sale.

drgrant said:
I guess I just think carrying a gun that you can (legally) stuff 13-15 rounds into (depending on the follower in the mag) with a 10 round cripplemag is like driving a car around with 4 donut tires on it. It'd be one thing if we were talking about an M&P, or a SigPro, or an XD... some gun where you really don't have a choice. (Although, apparently you can jury-rig a preban Beretta 9mm mag to work in some variant of the XD9, and not compromise its viability in a Beretta, which keeps it all within the law. )
Click to expand...

I see what you're saying, I guess I just think differently. It's entirely possible I am just freaked out by the dearth of information re: MA law that I am getting blasted with. For good or ill when I dive into something I tend to want to learn as much as possible, and maybe I am going overboard with my paranoia.

drgrant said:
In any SD shooting incident, there's at least a 50% chance they're going to come and clean out your house or apartment, too, so anything you weren't carrying ends up being on the table as well. So if you're gonna sniff the fumes, you might as well apply it to everything you own, or at least, everything you keep within the borders of the state.

-Mike
Click to expand...

True. Everyone had recommended "The Combative Perspective" in the training forum so i read that, and it seemed like he was making some allusions to the trouble that this type of thing could cause, so that is part of where this is coming from too.

Maybe I'll rethink.
 
Also some food for though. If ever prosecuted for having post ban mags... they have to prove that they are post ban. You do not have to prove that they are preban. It helps if you can prove they are preban but its all on the prosecutors to make their case, they cant be like "We think they might be post-ban because we don't know for sure. Convict him!"

With that said. I always source out pre-ban mags for my glocks and AR15. They are fairly easy to find. I don't know how to recognize a preban sig magazine though but it seems like others are covering that already.
 

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