Broken 1911 hammer spring?

[milktree]

I've been having some problems with light primer hits from my Para P14. Today it cost me a reload at a steel plate match, so I figured it was time to do something about it.

I removed the hammer spring and measured it, comparing it to the same part in a Kimber and Norinco "Model of the 1911"

Para:
18 coils, one end bent flat, one end like it was just cut
0.040" diameter wire
1.81" long

Kimber:
21.5 coils, both ends bent flat
0.040" diameter wire
2.01" long

Norinco:
22 coils, both ends bent flat
0.044" diameter wire
2.0" long.

So, it sure looks like the Para's hammer spring is broken, but I can't find the piece anywhere.

However, since spring rate is inversely related to number of coils, the para spring is *stiffer* than either the Kimber or Norinco spring. But because it's shorter, there's less preload on it.

In other words, I strongly suspect the spring is broken, but I can imagine it's not because spring design isn't always straightforward. Maybe Para had something in mind.

Is there much variety in spring length or is the shorter length indicative of its brokenness?

If it's broken, I'm inclined to just replace it with a 20 or 19lb spring, any reason not to?

 

[Gammon]

I would suggest a new hammer spring, available from Brownells or Wolff. I would also suggest that you use a stock 23 lb spring. The hammer spring is part of a system, it plays a major role in controlling the slide's velocity along with the recoil spring as well as driving the hammer.

 

[Jbarila]

I would suggest a new hammer spring, available from Brownells or Wolff. I would also suggest that you use a stock 23 lb spring. The hammer spring is part of a system, it plays a major role in controlling the slide's velocity along with the recoil spring as well as driving the hammer.

+1 This said it all.

 

[drgrant]

Take the gun and give it to a smith and tell him "I want all the junk Para parts replaced". It'll save you a lot of trouble in the long run. If you are lucky you will end up with an OK gun in the end. Otherwise this likely won't be the first time it fails on you.

-Mike

 

[bill o]

The mainspring should have both ends in neat, flat coil. If it's been cut, replace it for $5 with a new Wolff or ISMI spring from Brownells.

 

[Supermoto]

The spring might have been cut, doubt it broke. Get a new one. A 17lbs or 19lbs will reliably fire, 23lbs is usually factor, but I find them much to heavy.

Para, Kimber, Norinco. Sell them all and get one decent 1911

 

[wmccurdy53]

The spring might have been cut, doubt it broke. Get a new one. A 17lbs or 19lbs will reliably fire, 23lbs is usually factor, but I find them much to heavy.

Para, Kimber, Norinco. Sell them all and get one decent 1911

Kimber? My competition gun is a Kimber and it has run flawlessly for 20,000 rounds.

 

[drgrant]

Kimber? My competition gun is a Kimber and it has run flawlessly for 20,000 rounds.

I have one and I am glad that Lou @ BEC finally got it running right. The old 1997 model I had was excellent.

That said.... if I had $XXX to run out and buy a 1911 with, Kimber would be close to last on the list. (Para would be near the bottom, with Taurus dead last) Most of their guns are just "meh" condensed into a handgun. I got mine because a friend was selling his, and it was cheap, and it was Series 70.

-Mike

 

[Supermoto]

Yep, the old ones were good, back when they were a custom, small shop. The newer ones suck, they uses their customers as quality control

 

[milktree]

Take the gun and give it to a smith and tell him "I want all the junk Para parts replaced". It'll save you a lot of trouble in the long run. If you are lucky you will end up with an OK gun in the end. Otherwise this likely won't be the first time it fails on you.

-Mike

What does "all the junk Para parts" mean? Is there a list somewhere of all the stuff people hate?

I didn't pay much for this gun, and it shoots very very well for me, despite its imperfections. What failures should I be looking out for?

 

[bill o]

What does "all the junk Para parts" mean? Is there a list somewhere of all the stuff people hate?

I didn't pay much for this gun, and it shoots very very well for me, despite its imperfections. What failures should I be looking out for?

Don't go replacing all the Para parts just because some people think they're unreliable. You'd be better off getting a new gun. If the gun shoots well, don't do anything.

 

[milktree]

Para, Kimber, Norinco. Sell them all and get one decent 1911

Well, at the time the Kimber was the only 9mm 1911 I knew of, and yes, I spent too much money on it. But it's very pretty, has a great trigger, and feels good. I've had no problems with it. Having said that, I don't shoot it very often. I should shoot it more.

The Norinco was really cheap. I like it because it's utilitarian, and if it fell out of a truck on to the concrete I wouldn't care much. It has *terrible* sights, and an OK trigger, but not great. It's a little loose, but not "floppy" loose. I figure I can experiment on it and not worry about it if I break it.

I got the P14 cheap, too, I low-balled a bid on gunbroker.... and won. I actually really like it. I'll want to replace the sights sometime, but even with the stock sights it's easy for me to shoot well.

No, none of them are really really nice guns, but I'm not sure I need one of those.

 

[milktree]

Don't go replacing all the Para parts just because some people think they're unreliable. You'd be better off getting a new gun. If the gun shoots well, don't do anything.

Oh, indeed! This gun will never be a defense gun, so I have the liberty of waiting for stuff to break before buying replacement parts. I'd just like to know what to look for, so I'll have a checklist (of sorts) of things to investigate when something seems "wrong"

 

[drgrant]

What does "all the junk Para parts" mean? Is there a list somewhere of all the stuff people hate?

I didn't pay much for this gun, and it shoots very very well for me, despite its imperfections. What failures should I be looking out for?

I was partially being facetious, but everyone I know that has owned a para (and runs it hard, eg, in competition) ends up replacing most or all the fire control parts (eg sear, hammer, disconnector, trigger, etc. ) in the gun either because of breakage or bad performance. Of course you CAN get lucky, though. If it runs, keep running it... but I guess what I am driving at, is don't be surprised if something else dies down the road.

-Mike

 

[Supermoto]

What does "all the junk Para parts" mean? Is there a list somewhere of all the stuff people hate?

Parts 1-51 are the junk Para parts

 

[Jbarila]

Man you guys are harsh. I you like the gun shoot it.

 

[SJan]

Parts 1-51 are the junk Para parts

Brutal!

That said.... if I had $XXX to run out and buy a 1911 with, Kimber would be close to last on the list. (Para would be near the bottom, with Taurus dead last)
-Mike

Out of curiosity, with $xxx budget, what 1911 would you buy? Also, what would you buy in say $1000-1500 ballpark? (ignoring MA list BS)

 

[Supermoto]

Low end STI spartan
Mid range STI Trojan

 

[bill o]

Low end STI spartan
Mid range STI Trojan

What single stack gun if money was no object? Cheely?

 

[SJan]

Low end STI spartan
Mid range STI Trojan

I really wish you hadn't said that, I've been looking at the CRP spartan and trojan models from Dawson. Please don't twist my arm

 

[Supermoto]

What single stack gun if money was no object? Cheely?

I think when you get into top end SS guns for competition. Almost all of them will build one that will run forever and stay tight through 10's of thousands of rounds. They all use similar parts, so go it really comes down to whi you have confidence in

I like Bedell and Cheely guns. Matt just posted a SS that was pure sex.

 

[Gammon]

Parts 1-51 are the junk Para parts

My experience is otherwise. In my P-16 I found that the slide, frame and barrel were OK. The gun actually grouped about three inches off of a rest at 50 yds in spite of horrible, creepy trigger. Unfortunately, I had to replace just about every other part. Para makes a great gun; too bad they deliver it to the shooter in Kit form.

 

[drgrant]

Out of curiosity, with $xxx budget, what 1911 would you buy? Also, what would you buy in say $1000-1500 ballpark? (ignoring MA list BS)

Under a Grand- SW1911 E Series (base model, is like less than $900). The Ruger SR1911 is also a nice "base" gun to customize.

Over that there are a lot of options. STI, Dan Wesson, MAYBE S&W Perf Center. Then once you start going past $1500-2K range you start getting into custom build land.

-Mike

 

[WindMeUp]

Parts 1-51 are the junk Para parts

What I believe you're telling me, is to run out and buy a trigger (52) from Para because it's not a junk Para part?

Everyone run out and buy a Para trigger, pronto!

 

[Rob Boudrie]

The mainspring should have both ends in neat, flat coil. If it's been cut, replace it for $5 with a new Wolff or ISMI spring from Brownells.

Note that this is the correct terminology for the part you describe.

What single stack gun if money was no object? Cheely?

Numerous choices. If money is no object, make surer you smith is using NO mim (Metal injection moulded) or cast parts. Despite claims they are "good enough", they are not "as good" - and even a small difference in density can result in big differences in strength.

As to material - remember, there is no free lunch. Stainless is nice, but it does NOT wear as well as traditional forged or machined from barstock heat treated carbon steel (preferably 4340 rather than 4140). The place where this can make a difference is keeping slide to frame tight over extended use (if you get stainless keep it running a bit wet).

My preference is SVI (www.sviguns.com) as I have seen the process from start to finish and know what goes into them (they make all parts except the springs in house, and this includes the barrels). I'd even say that if I didn't have a "special arrangment" with the factory and get along with all their dogs.

 

[Gammon]

Note that this is the correct terminology for the part you describe.



Numerous choices. If money is no object, make surer you smith is using NO mim (Metal injection moulded) or cast parts. Despite claims they are "good enough", they are not "as good" - and even a small difference in density can result in big differences in strength.

As to material - remember, there is no free lunch. Stainless is nice, but it does NOT wear as well as traditional forged or machined from barstock heat treated carbon steel (preferably 4340 rather than 4140). The place where this can make a difference is keeping slide to frame tight over extended use (if you get stainless keep it running a bit wet).

My preference is SVI (www.sviguns.com) as I have seen the process from start to finish and know what goes into them (they make all parts except the springs in house, and this includes the barrels). I'd even say that if I didn't have a "special arrangment" with the factory and get along with all their dogs.

I have to disagree with you on the durability of SS guns. I just put about 30,000 rounds through a SIG all stainless 9mm P 226 with no appreciable wear in the slide to frame fit. Maybe it was the 20w50 synthetic motor oil I was using.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

I have to disagree with you on the durability of SS guns. I just put about 30,000 rounds through a SIG all stainless 9mm P 226 with no appreciable wear in the slide to frame fit. Maybe it was the 20w50 synthetic motor oil I was using.

I don't doubt that what you say is true, however, that does not prove that stainless is as durable as high quality carbon steel.

First off, "running wet" can make a HUGE difference and make the difference very hard to impossible to notice as a practical matter. (note my comment about this in my original post)

Secondly, the issue of "tightness" is relative. The Sig P226 is a great gun, however, the slide to frame fit on that quality, mass produced gun, is not at the same level of a high end 1911 where the "tight" takes on an entirely different meaning. Any mass produced pistol for which you could take two samples and expect to interchange slides without problems is almost certainly not in the realm of what a high end 1911 smith would call "tight".

So, in other words, I think we are both right depending on how you look at it.

 

[Gammon]

The slide to frame fit on my all SS SIG P 226 is comparable to a custome fitted pistol, even after 30,000 rounds. I do, however, run it "wet".