Cartridge Revolution?

[peterk123]

Is there a battle going on in the market within the 6.5mm to 7mm cartridges? It seems like every year a manufacturer is coming out with a new high BC bullet that is supposed to be the flattest shooting and hardest hitting one ever invented.

They are definitely an improvement over the classics, offering less drop, more KE and in some cases less recoil. But does it really matter much at the end of the day?

As tempting as it would be to retire my 308 for one of these cartridges, I can't get past the issue of availability. Seems each bullet manufacturer has their own version so they are not going to want to produce a bullet of one of their competitors. Doesn't seem like a good deal for the consumer.

Few of the ones that come to mind are:

7mm backcountry
6.8 western
7mm prc
6.5prc
26 nosler
27 nosler
28 nosler

Do you think all of these make it long term or only a couple survive, if any? 6.8 western is a great example. It ticks off all the boxes as a great hunter but ammo availability seems very limited.

 

[Qwikdraw45]

Well, look at the smaller calibers. .22 Valkyrie, .22 Nosler, etc. I don't see any of them replacing the .223/5.56 market. There is probably a limited market based on other factors as well. How many people go on hunting trips more than a few times? ("hunt of a lifetime"). Would they buy a "new" caliber from above just for that (some might, but probably most would stick with a "tried and true" and "commonly available" caliber)? The only "new" caliber that ever interested me was the 6.5 CM. Better ballistics for deer, small bears, etc. I held off until it met the "Walmart Standard" as I call it. If you can find it at any/most Walmarts, it's probably sufficiently recognized. If only "Joe's Gun Shop" or limited boutiques carry it, I wouldn't want it.

How's that .45GAP and .30SC doing? When there are plenty of calibers available that do the job already (even if not "quite" as good as something new), why bother?

 

[greencobra]

there's always a "newest, best and brightest" race with cartridges like there is with pistols. just say you agree with the famous gun writer, jack o'connor. the 270 is the do all, end all rifle cartridge. i attended a lecture he did at harvard university sponsored by a harvard rifle club in 1970 (???) he had me convinced even though i didn't understand a damn thing he said for the 20 minutes. for 50+ years i just answer 270 if i get cornered for an answer to the timeless question. he died from exhaustion in the late 70's...tired of explaining himself.

 

[StevieP]

for tried and true, compatibility with AR platform, excellent performance, ammo availability from multiple vendors, look at 6.5 Grendel.

not bleeding edge new cartridge, but one that all the new ones compare themselves to

 

[peterk123]

there's always a "newest, best and brightest" race with cartridges like there is with pistols. just say you agree with the famous gun writer, jack o'connor. the 270 is the do all, end all rifle cartridge. i attended a lecture he did at harvard university sponsored by a harvard rifle club in 1970 (???) he had me convinced even though i didn't understand a damn thing he said for the 20 minutes. for 50+ years i just answer 270 if i get cornered for an answer to the timeless question. he died from exhaustion in the late 70's...tired of explaining himself.

I don't own one but I've read so much about the 270. That is one hell of a cartridge.

 

[Qwikdraw45]

there's always a "newest, best and brightest" race with cartridges like there is with pistols. just say you agree with the famous gun writer, jack o'connor. the 270 is the do all, end all rifle cartridge. i attended a lecture he did at harvard university sponsored by a harvard rifle club in 1970 (???) he had me convinced even though i didn't understand a damn thing he said for the 20 minutes. for 50+ years i just answer 270 if i get cornered for an answer to the timeless question. he died from exhaustion in the late 70's...tired of explaining himself.

I don't own one but I've read so much about the 270. That is one hell of a cartridge.

My uncle was a big 30-'06 fan. Heavy loads for big stuff, if you wanted it (220gr). Lighter for others. He was also a big reloader, and kept pointing out that you could load it hotter for some things, and lighter for practice if you didn't like the recoil. He loved to point out that the .270 Win was just a necked-down .30-'06, and the .308 Win was just a shortened .30-'06.

He also liked to mention that he could walk into any store in the country and get some '06 ammo if he was traveling and left his at home. Hence part of the reason I held off on a 6.5CM for a while. I only reloaded '06 for a little while, and didn't care for the recoil.

 

[Caveman]

270 gets my vote. Humped it up and down the mountains of VT for probably almost 2 decades. With some modern bullets it looks like it can do some solid numbers.

 

[AmeriKHAN]

Personally, I'm a 6.5 Arisaka fan. What's funny is the Russians considered it to be an intermediate cartridge and the Federov Avtomat was chambered in it. Whenever I find some Norma (along with the 7.7) my credit card comes out without a doubt.

 

[Mark from ?]

My uncle was a big 30-'06 fan. Heavy loads for big stuff, if you wanted it (220gr). Lighter for others. He was also a big reloader, and kept pointing out that you could load it hotter for some things, and lighter for practice if you didn't like the recoil. He loved to point out that the .270 Win was just a necked-down .30-'06, and the .308 Win was just a shortened .30-'06.

He also liked to mention that he could walk into any store in the country and get some '06 ammo if he was traveling and left his at home. Hence part of the reason I held off on a 6.5CM for a while. I only reloaded '06 for a little while, and didn't care for the recoil.

This. You can download 30-06 to light kid loads or you can upload it to 300 mag ballistics. The ammo is still everywhere.

Basically once 6.5 became popular every one and their uncle created their version and thinks it will sell. It wont, even though some of them could be better.

Once 6.5 bun showed up on shelves everywhere I bought in cause its a very accurate round and good for deer. Its nothing new, 260 Rem has been out there forever. But your not gonna have the next guy in the range booth handing you his 260 rem brass like the guy was handing me his 6.5 brass the other day. If you think anyone is gonna hand you 26 nosler your out of your mind.

Personally I like .243 on deer and ive seen what it can do with very little recoil. For Southern deer id choose that, but 6.5 is a little extra insurance on bigger Northen deer.


All these other calibers are just put out for caliber whores to buy rifles. Most of them will be obsolete and hard to find in 10 years and youll need to reload them or buy brass to if you can find it. Gun companies love new cartridges because they sell guns. But for anything but special uses. Most can stop at 5.56 or .223 for varmints, 6.5 for light skinned game and 06 to cover the rest.

 

[Mark from ?]

for tried and true, compatibility with AR platform, excellent performance, ammo availability from multiple vendors, look at 6.5 Grendel.

not bleeding edge new cartridge, but one that all the new ones compare themselves to

Grendel would be my second choice with man bun being first in bolt gun. and my first choice if thinking AR mixed in.

 

[Broc Tuah]

6.5cm.

It is the best compromise between some F class cartridge and 308. Good ballistics, plenty of guns, plenty of bullets for reloading, plenty of factory ammo, will kill an aninal at 400 yards and, if you reload, you don't need to test 7 bullets and 6 powders. 143gr and H4350 gets sub MOA.

As much as some here hate 6.5cm, you have to think about what fits 90% of the applications and what is easy for people that don't reload to obtain.

If you reload, your main worries are an action, barrel and maybe a mag that will feed reliably. If you find those things, the cartridge doesn't matter as much as long as someone sells bullets.

"But, muh barrel life" - not a valid argument for 99% of people.

 

[kalash]

As tempting as it would be to retire my 308 for one of these cartridges...

Why? What's wrong with your 308?

 

[LuvDog]

What I see is more and more new high BC bullets in 22 and 25 cal

That's where I think the marketing will go crazy and announce the new best cartridge of all time and you're not a real sniper/latte drinker unless you jump on board and shoot something in 25cal.

I think it was @lukewarm_fuzz predicted a little while ago that we'll see a lot more 25 cal on the line at PRS matches.

 

[Qwikdraw45]

This. You can download 30-06 to light kid loads or you can upload it to 300 mag ballistics. The ammo is still everywhere.

Basically once 6.5 became popular every one and their uncle created their version and thinks it will sell. It wont, even though some of them could be better.

Once 6.5 bun showed up on shelves everywhere I bought in cause its a very accurate round and good for deer. Its nothing new, 260 Rem has been out there forever. But your not gonna have the next guy in the range booth handing you his 260 rem brass like the guy was handing me his 6.5 brass the other day. If you think anyone is gonna hand you 26 nosler your out of your mind.

Personally I like .243 on deer and ive seen what it can do with very little recoil. For Southern deer id choose that, but 6.5 is a little extra insurance on bigger Northen deer.


All these other calibers are just put out for caliber whores to buy rifles. Most of them will be obsolete and hard to find in 10 years and youll need to reload them or buy brass to if you can find it. Gun companies love new cartridges because they sell guns. But for anything but special uses. Most can stop at 5.56 or .223 for varmints, 6.5 for light skinned game and 06 to cover the rest.

There you go. .260 Rem is a case in point. It was hard to find locally, and a lot of people mentioned the accuracy was not there, in part to Remington setting the twist rate as compared to bullet weight ( A La .244 Rem). Now please excuse me. I have to go adjust my bun.

What I see is more and more new high BC bullets in 22 and 25 cal

That's where I think the marketing will go crazy and announce the new best cartridge of all time and you're not a real sniper/latte drinker unless you jump on board and shoot something in 25cal.

I think it was @lukewarm_fuzz predicted a little while ago that we'll see a lot more 25 cal on the line at PRS matches.

We already have the .25-'06. They could play with that, but I suppose they want short/medium action lengths.

 

[Mark from ?]

6.5cm.

It is the best compromise between some F class cartridge and 308 Fudd. Good ballistics, plenty of guns, plenty of bullets for reloading, plenty of factory ammo, will kill an aninal at 400 yards and, if you reload, you don't need to test 7 bullets and 6 powders. 143gr and H4350 gets sub MOA.

As much as some here hate 6.5cm, you have to think about what fits 90% of the applications and what is easy for people that don't reload to obtain.

If you reload, your main worries are an action, barrel and maybe a mag that will feed reliably. If you find those things, the cartridge doesn't matter as much as long as someone sells bullets.

"But, muh barrel life" - not a valid argument for 99% of people.

I think old timers hate it because 260 rem was always out there and no one cared, and the 6.5 came along and during a time of gun popularity and all these jackoff sniper operators jumped on board.

My deal is its as popularand as many loads on the shelf as 30-06. Dont fight city hall if you want free brass to reload and lots of bullet configurations to use. And no one can argue its not accurate

 

[KMM696]

I think the issue with 260 Rem wasn't the cartridge, but as Quikdraw45 pointed out the twist rates of the rifles commonly available then. Not fast enough for what people were looking for using today's bullets. I put together a 260 AI just about when the first news on the 6.5 CM were coming out. If I had been psychic, I'd have gone 6.5 just for brass availability. If you just look at the cartridges themselves for 260 and 6.5 CM, their own mothers would have trouble telling them apart without a micrometer. Feed 260/260AI/6.5CM into a fast twist barrel and they'll all act about the same - except you can find factory ammo and brass easily for one of them.

 

[peterk123]

Why? What's wrong with your 308?

Nothing, I guess that's the point. Yes these high BC bullets are better, no question, but does it really matter for practical purposes? Lots of load data, availability of powders that will work, and bullet options seem more important to me.

 

[Broc Tuah]

Nothing, I guess that's the point. Yes these high BC bullets are better, no question, but does it really matter for practical purposes? Lots of load data, availability of powders that will work, and bullet options seem more important to me.

Depends what you need the gun for.

Most people want more gun than what they need and most of those people can't reliably hit a paper plate at 100 yards. Some are working towards getting better, but many just mag dump and walk away.

Think of it like buying a truck or Jeep with all the cool offroad stuff but never touching dirt.

I would say for like 90% of people I see at the range, 308, even surplus 223 is fine.

 

[LuvDog]

243 is great, and so are all the other "legacy" cartridges mentioned. I had a Tikka 260 and a R700 243 and both were great.

But rifles originally chambered for them will have a slower twist barrel. So you won't get the advantages of the heavy high BC bullets.

That being said, most people aren't shooting far enough for it to matter. myself included.

But when all the youtubers and online people are showing great results at 1000 yds+, it's hard to not want that type of precision yourself.

 

[dcmdon]

Is there a battle going on in the market within the 6.5mm to 7mm cartridges? It seems like every year a manufacturer is coming out with a new high BC bullet that is supposed to be the flattest shooting and hardest hitting one ever invented.

They are definitely an improvement over the classics, offering less drop, more KE and in some cases less recoil. But does it really matter much at the end of the day?

As tempting as it would be to retire my 308 for one of these cartridges, I can't get past the issue of availability. Seems each bullet manufacturer has their own version so they are not going to want to produce a bullet of one of their competitors. Doesn't seem like a good deal for the consumer.

Few of the ones that come to mind are:

7mm backcountry
6.8 western
7mm prc
6.5prc
26 nosler
27 nosler
28 nosler

Do you think all of these make it long term or only a couple survive, if any? 6.8 western is a great example. It ticks off all the boxes as a great hunter but ammo availability seems very limited.

It all comes down to what you are doing with it.

If you are shooting a deer with it inside 200 yards then the .308 is superior to most of those new fangled rounds because its terminal ballistic are superior.

If you are shooting paper all day at 500 to 1200 yards, then the .308 is VERY VERY inferior. The bullet drops and drifts more. The gun beats you up more, which matters if you are shooting 100+ rounds per day. And because of the recoil, it's hard to see where your bullet hit through the scope.

I took the advanced precision rifle course at sig with a .308 and was at a disadvantage for the reasons I listed above.

I decided that for my target shooting needs (Inside 600 yards) I was best served by an old fashioned .223 loaded to longer than AR magazine length with a new,, modern, high BC bullet. I got very lucky and picked up a custom bolt gun that had been set up for this kind of round. It fits and feeds from an AICS mag. The gun has a longer throat in the chamber to allow the bullet to be loaded much further out.

BUT. If I didn't reload and wanted to punch paper, I'd probably get a 6 Creedmoor. Pay attention, many of the Nosler and PRC cartridges are designed for use well beyond 1000 yards. They are large cartridges and recoil more than your .308. If you are trying to improve your skill, you want less recoil, not more.

6 ARC would make a great training cartridge in a bolt gun. But like you said, it can be hard to get. 6 Creedmoor is very available.

 

[Road_Clam]

243 is great, and so are all the other "legacy" cartridges mentioned. I had a Tikka 260 and a R700 243 and both were great.

But rifles originally chambered for them will have a slower twist barrel. So you won't get the advantages of the heavy high BC bullets.

That being said, most people aren't shooting far enough for it to matter. myself included.

But when all the youtubers and online people are showing great results at 1000 yds+, it's hard to not want that type of precision yourself.

The . 243 is so underrated . I took a box stock R700 in 243 out to 1K yds at Sig . Did very well. Only issue was it was a foggy conditions on the range and it was difficult to spot the bullet splash impacts.

 

[dcmdon]

This. You can download 30-06 to light kid loads or you can upload it to 300 mag ballistics. The ammo is still everywhere.

Basically once 6.5 became popular every one and their uncle created their version and thinks it will sell. It wont, even though some of them could be better.

Once 6.5 bun showed up on shelves everywhere I bought in cause its a very accurate round and good for deer. Its nothing new, 260 Rem has been out there forever. But your not gonna have the next guy in the range booth handing you his 260 rem brass like the guy was handing me his 6.5 brass the other day. If you think anyone is gonna hand you 26 nosler your out of your mind.

Personally I like .243 on deer and ive seen what it can do with very little recoil. For Southern deer id choose that, but 6.5 is a little extra insurance on bigger Northen deer.


All these other calibers are just put out for caliber whores to buy rifles. Most of them will be obsolete and hard to find in 10 years and youll need to reload them or buy brass to if you can find it. Gun companies love new cartridges because they sell guns. But for anything but special uses. Most can stop at 5.56 or .223 for varmints, 6.5 for light skinned game and 06 to cover the rest.

Reloading opens up a whole new world of possibilities. But most people don't do it.

I've loaded my .308 to about 1000 fps using trail boss and 240 gr bullets. It's great fun with little recoil. With a standard .30 cal can, it's REALLY quiet. But whacks steel pretty hard at 100 yards.

 

[dcmdon]

The . 243 is so underrated . I took a box stock R700 in 243 out to 1K yds at Sig . Did very well. Only issue was it was a foggy conditions on the range and it was difficult to spot the bullet splash impacts.

The biggest problem with .243 is it's not loaded commercially with very heavy, high BC bullets. Other .243 cartridges like 6 Creedmoor are designed for heavier bullets.

One other thing. The typical .243 rifle won't have a twist rate fast enough to stabilize a 100 gr bullet, so even if you reload some heavier cartridges, you are limited.

I'm not saying it won't get the job done. But if I was planning to buy a gun, I'd get something with more versatility.

 

[Mark from ?]

Nothing, I guess that's the point. Yes these high BC bullets are better, no question, but does it really matter for practical purposes? Lots of load data, availability of powders that will work, and bullet options seem more important to me.

Don't get sucked into the caliber bullshit to buy new guns. If you reload you can do a lot with a lot of different bullets and powders with the .308. Just like you can with the 06 or 6.5.

Shit I sold my .308 and regretted it because I use the same bullets for 300 blackout now.......almost feel that I should sell the 6.5 and get another 308 so I only need to stock one caliber bullet for 3 different rifles..... 300blk, .308 and 30-06. Ill always have 30-06 because of some old family heirlooms. Then I have a bunch of .44 mag PCCs and levers.... So 30 cal and 44 cal would be all I need to buy.

6.5 is only staying because I have a ton of loaded ammo for and my rifle is the only one I have setup for long range, and won't get what I have into it. So why sell it. Plus its sub MOA with almost any ammo...even cheap Herters shit. Tough to get rid of that.

 

[Mark from ?]

The biggest problem with .243 is it's not loaded commercially with very heavy, high BC bullets. Other .243 cartridges like 6 Creedmoor are designed for heavier bullets.

One other thing. The typical .243 rifle won't have a twist rate fast enough to stabilize a 100 gr bullet, so even if you reload some heavier cartridges, you are limited.

I'm not saying it won't get the job done. But if I was planning to buy a gun, I'd get something with more versatility.

100 grain soft point loads with 40 something ish grains of H4350 will absolutely get the job done on deer.....no problem. Seen it first hand several times.
Hit it right in the neck/shoulder/heart interface deer never gets up. You won't even know you shot.

 

[Dennis in MA]

6.5cm.

It is the best compromise between some F class cartridge and 308. Good ballistics, plenty of guns, plenty of bullets for reloading, plenty of factory ammo, will kill an aninal at 400 yards and, if you reload, you don't need to test 7 bullets and 6 powders. 143gr and H4350 gets sub MOA.

As much as some here hate 6.5cm, you have to think about what fits 90% of the applications and what is easy for people that don't reload to obtain.

If you reload, your main worries are an action, barrel and maybe a mag that will feed reliably. If you find those things, the cartridge doesn't matter as much as long as someone sells bullets.

"But, muh barrel life" - not a valid argument for 99% of people.

I saw a YT video a couple of days ago. They used multiple layers (water-filled container with birdseed, thick plastic) in front of ballistics gel at 200 yds. Not 30 yards. 200.

I think it was 270, 6.5, 7mm Mag (I think), 300WM, . . . . . . something else. Maybe a 243. I've forgotten.

The creed did the worst. It SEEMED to have terminal ballistics after some muscle and bone, but not nearly as good as the rst. PEnetration into the gel was a few inches.

I found it interesting food for thought. Depending on the game you are going after. (These guys were obviously out-west big gamers. So shots on elk and such were an issue. And the distances are CRAZY long out there.)

 

[Broc Tuah]

I saw a YT video a couple of days ago. They used multiple layers (water-filled container with birdseed, thick plastic) in front of ballistics gel at 200 yds. Not 30 yards. 200.

I think it was 270, 6.5, 7mm Mag (I think), 300WM, . . . . . . something else. Maybe a 243. I've forgotten.

The creed did the worst. It SEEMED to have terminal ballistics after some muscle and bone, but not nearly as good as the rst. PEnetration into the gel was a few inches.

I found it interesting food for thought. Depending on the game you are going after. (These guys were obviously out-west big gamers. So shots on elk and such were an issue. And the distances are CRAZY long out there.)

Meh. What bullet weight? What bullet type?

I have shared pics of a 6.5cm going through a deer at 375 yards. Using 143gr Hornady ELDX. Factory load.

 

[peterk123]

The . 243 is so underrated . I took a box stock R700 in 243 out to 1K yds at Sig . Did very well. Only issue was it was a foggy conditions on the range and it was difficult to spot the bullet splash impacts.

I know a family that has a 243 in the family for four generations. The rifle has dropped a lot of elk.

 

[40 Creedmoor fan]

There is no revolution.
Every decade or so, manufacturers manages to produce a semi-decent cartridge and the marketing department goes into overdrive trying to make to convince the public that this is the next best thing. This is usually followed by a bunch of "mee too" moves by other companies who try bring their own cartridge in similar caliber.
Remember the .22 wars to "improve" 223 Remington? 224 Valkyrie, 22 Nosler, 204 Ruger, 22 PPC.
There there was a 30 cal insanity...
Remember the "short and fat is good" period in early 2000's? how about 22LR replacement wannabes?

 

[PatMcD]

All a cartridge does is propel a certain diameter bullet, a certain speed.
To think that some new cartridge is going to be "the answer" to someone's shooting "problems" is stupid.
6.6 Creedmoor somehow "clicked" with the gun buying public. It propels great 6.5 bullets at a certain speed. Nothing more. Pretty much the same thing the 6.5-08 and 6.5 Swede have been doing since forever.