Comm2A Challenges Firearms Prohibition for Lawfully Admitted Aliens

cekim said:
It's not a slope since the right to keep and bear arms is an unalienable right endowed by our creator, protected from infringement by the government, not a privilege of citizenship as voting is...".
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For your statement to be true, then one must first believe in a creator. We can talk about natural law, Rosseau, Hegel, Locke etc. but no where in my casual perusal of the constitution do I see any reference to inalienable rights, nor do I see any reference to inalienable rights in the Bill of Rights (but then I am not the astute constitutional scholar that some profess to be). As far as voting being a privilege: the 14th Amendment pretty much affirms it as a right.

if we follow the "natural rights" line of thinking, then it really becomes a lot more difficult to justify how the detainees at Gitmo are being treated especially with regard to due process etc. not to mention extreme interrogation techniques. If we are going to be consistent, then we must be intellectually consistent in all things, I am sure you would agree.

I can see no good coming of this in our present society. Before this is over I can envision a scenario where illegal aliens can purchase and own machine guns unrestricted, legal aliens can own .22 rifles and .410 shotguns and citizens of the United States can own air soft guns provided that they pay a $500 dollar licensing fee, a $1000 dollar purchase permit and fill out a 250 page application in triplicate. [grin]

Citizenship should confer certain perks or rights not enjoyed by others whether they be here legally or illegally. Of course the Mass Gun Laws are really screwed up, no disagreement there.

Mark L.
 
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mark056 said:
For your statement to be true, then one must first believe in a creator.
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no, one must not believe in anything - we were created... This fact cannot be disputed unless you attempt to argue that we are not really here. Go ahead try... [laugh]

Whatever did that, endowed us with our natural rights. I don't care what it is, what you call it, or which songs you sing or don't sing to it.

Citizenship does indeed confer come privileges, but the right to keep and bear arms is not among them - that is a right which the government is prohibited from infringing upon.

Those who describe the right to defend yourself as a privilege are the enemy of liberty and should seek a king to rule them, but not here.
 
jar said:
Gun ownership and self defense aren't a privilege.

Looks like the genesis of this case and Comm2A occurred right here on NES: http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/threads/87204-FID-Card-for-a-Permanent-Resident-(Alien)
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I agree with you wholeheartedly with my literary faux pas of referring to the right to bear arms a privilege and after seeing my error, I edited my post to reflect that. It's unfortunate that you didn't catch my edit soon enough so you expended needless energy responding to that...mea culpa, mea culpa, mea culpa. [sad]

To cekim:

I will also agree that we are created, my mother and father made me, so I was created by them. Whether this confers on me natural rights depends of course on which philosophy I wish to embrace. There are some schools of thought that can make a case that maybe we really aren't here and that reality is some kind of illusion. This is too obtuse for me and I lack the intellectual firepower to even grasp that concept and I believe that the same could be said for you (no offense, of course). If I were to debate that point, I would have to do some considerable research and then find someone intellectually worthy enough to have a discourse on the subject (it wouldn't be you, again no offense) [laugh]

With regard to natural rights, I seem to recall that Locke and others addressed property but not the right to bear arms.

You are and I are never going to see eye to eye on this, but to reiterate you are correct that the right to bear arms is a right as stated by the constitution but whether this right in unfettered form is a right guaranteed to all regardless, is open to debate. If the right to bear arms is something endowed by a creator, then even illegal aliens should be able to carry.

Wishing you nothing but the best and with appreciation for your commitment to the 2A,

Mark L.
 
jar said:
Gun ownership and self defense aren't a privilege.

Looks like the genesis of this case and Comm2A occurred right here on NES: http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/threads/87204-FID-Card-for-a-Permanent-Resident-(Alien)
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http://www.northeastshooters.com/vb...dent-(Alien)?p=1455958&viewfull=1#post1455958

Look how long it took to get here. Wow, it seems so recent yet was sooo long ago. It took a while to get the pieces in motion.

CMF knew we would take his case by like april or may of 2010. Brent, Rob and I had already started talking about this in '09 (the name Comm2A hadn't even been thought up yet...) and Brent was hot to take CMF's case back then. Classic thread. Thanks for digging that up.
 
50 BMG said:
This is why I will continue to raise money for Comm2A. They actually do something!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Keep up the great work and I will keep handing out information and getting donations.
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We appreciate yours and everyone else's efforts in making this happen. [thumbsup]
 
Thanks for all the work guys. I know you've all put tons of time, effort, and probably money in to this. I really can't thank you enough for doing this. So many people sit around and bitch on the forum and elsewhere. You guys saw a way to help and jumped in and started doing it. I just set up a regular donation with my bank's bill pay system. If there's anything I can do to help, just ask.
 
mark056 said:
This is a slippery slope. On the face of it, it seems to be a very valid point. However, if legal aliens have the full protection and rights of United States Citizens, then why should they not be able to vote? As most of us know, the right of all aliens (illegal or legal) to vote is an issue which has come up repeatedly. In some municipal jurisdictions all aliens have the right to vote in local elections. Affirming that all legal aliens have the same rights as all citizens merely opens the door a little wider, and before we know it just casts a wider net on the whole issue of ILLEGAL aliens and the rights that they supposedly enjoy as well.

I realize that there may be some compelling reasons to retain the citizenship of a particular country and reside permanently in another country with little of no desire to return to the country of origin. On the other hand, I cannot see why one would, in the course, of everyday living not want to become a citizen of the country that one resides in. If one desires all the benefits, then one should become a member of the team IMO.

Mark L.
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See the 14th amendment, paraphrasing. Is that priveleges and immunities cannot be aborogated of citizens, and life, liberty or property my not be deprived of any PERSON without due process of law.

Voting, holding office, and having certain public safety positions only to citizens has been ruled constitional.

It is settled law that non-citizen resident aliens in this country have fundamental rights. Heller and McDonald states it is a fundamental right to keep a handgun in your home. How can you deny that to people who have been judged by the USCIS to be of "good moral character"?

Gun regulations don't effect anyone but the law abiding.

Every time the issue has been litigated in the last 20 years, the equal protection argument has won. Even for a states which allow full OC with no license and have no possession license like MA does, a resident alien who has sued under equal protection in federal court for a concealed carry permit has won. One of them got on a prelimary injunction in FIVE WEEKS.

The issue is settled law. Alienage was taken up first because standing is easily provable (denial of an LTC) versus an aw ban or other regs.

Gray
 
Timber said:
A permanent resident could easily become a citizen and vote, as they've already been through 3/4s of the immigration process, but for reasons of their own choosing decide to forego that final step. In doing so, they willingly give up that right to vote as well.

Perhaps they own property in their mother country that would be jeopardized by becoming a US citizen? Perhaps it's an emotional thing?
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I can give you some examples that I'm personally aware of that illustrate this.

- I worked with a guy who's Aunt was a Bermudian. He told us that she owned a really nice house and property in Bermuda (she lived there). He told us that when she dies, it can NOT be willed to/inherited by anyone who is not a Native Bermudian due to their laws. In other words the property will be confiscated by their gov't.

- We vacationed in St. Lucia (British territory) once and met a retired American couple (retired teachers) who had bought a really nice house for their retirement. They told us the same thing . . . when they die, the gov't takes the property since they weren't British Subjects nor are their children.

- I did a lot of business with two German product safety test houses who opened local offices TÜV – München and TÜV - Bavaria, in MetroWest and the North Shore respectively. The heads of these offices were German Nationals who lived in the US for many, many years. I recall a discussion with the head of TÜV - Bavaria and he told me that although he had no desire to return to Germany to live. HOWEVER, he told me that whenever he retired he would be taken care of for life with free socialized medical care and a fat retirement from the German gov't. I don't know for certain, but suspect that TÜV may be a gov't entity. If Juergen spots this perhaps he can elucidate on that.

Bottom line is that there are economic issues involved in making decisions to abandon your "homeland" for a new citizenship and different people make different decisions. This is something that I can respect. NOBODY should be forced to forsake their homeland for a new citizenship against their will.
 
Timber said:
Natural rights vs. right of citizens is not really all that hard to understand, though it does get convaluted in the media. - As do most things.

The right to self-defense, - regardless of whether one believes in a creator or not -, is a universal right that falls outside the juristiction of governmental bodies.

The right to vote in a society adheres to those who are citizens of said societies.

A permanent resident could easily become a citizen and vote, as they've already been through 3/4s of the immigration process, but for reasons of their own choosing decide to forego that final step. In doing so, they willingly give up that right to vote as well.

Perhaps they own property in their mother country that would be jeopardized by becoming a US citizen? Perhaps it's an emotional thing?

I knew a guy once whose personal philosophy was: " Never change your wife. Never change your religion. Never change your citizenship."

He was a permanent resident here in the US. He paid more into SS / Fed Income tax than 99% of the members here. His wife and children all became US citizens. He and his family contributed more to the wellbeing of this nation than most people I've met.

But he decided not to become a citizen because his heart belonged elsewhere.

And because he lived 50 miles north of MA in NH he was not denied the right to purchase ammunition or firearms, legally carried a concealed weapon for his protection, and was not subjected to the arbitrary suitability ruling of some COP in a state that claims it's reliant upon legal immigrants, yet denies them their natural right to self-defense.
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this


my father is one of these men....
 
jar said:
Gun ownership and self defense aren't a privilege.

Looks like the genesis of this case and Comm2A occurred right here on NES: http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/threads/87204-FID-Card-for-a-Permanent-Resident-(Alien)
Click to expand...
This thread was indeed the partial genesis for Comm2A and I have fond memories of it. It was only after reading the WA and KY cases that I truly gained an appreciation of universally fundamental rights applied and just how powerful well planned civil litigation can be used to protect those rights. The proverbial light bulb really went off after I understood this issue.

terraformer said:
We are already attacking discretionary licensing and carry via Hightower. We have more on the way. Why would we NOT pick this? Do you think that a LEGAL immigrant who followed our laws and whom submitted themselves to our immigration laws doesn't deserve to live the American Dream? Maybe we can say the 5th amendment doesn't apply to them. Or the first. Why stop there? Why not say the first doesn't apply to citizens who have red hair.

Rights are rights. If we all don't enjoy them, we all WILL lose them.
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Exactly. And the slippery slope here is that every time we carve out exceptions to the exercise of a fundamental right we open the door for more exceptions. This is EXACTLY the rationale used by gun control advocates. In every post-Heller brief they've filed the Brady Campaign has argued that while the right to keep and bear arms may be a fundamental right, it's different. It's different because guns are dangerous that the normal standards that apply to fundamental rights shouldn't apply here.

Gray Peterson said:
See the 14th amendment, paraphrasing. Is that priveleges and immunities cannot be aborogated of citizens, and life, liberty or property my not be deprived of any PERSON without due process of law.

Voting, holding office, and having certain public safety positions only to citizens has been ruled constitional.

It is settled law that non-citizen resident aliens in this country have fundamental rights. Heller and McDonald states it is a fundamental right to keep a handgun in your home. How can you deny that to people who have been judged by the USCIS to be of "good moral character"?

Gun regulations don't effect anyone but the law abiding.

Every time the issue has been litigated in the last 20 years, the equal protection argument has won. Even for a states which allow full OC with no license and have no possession license like MA does, a resident alien who has sued under equal protection in federal court for a concealed carry permit has won. One of them got on a prelimary injunction in FIVE WEEKS.

The issue is settled law. Alienage was taken up first because standing is easily provable (denial of an LTC) versus an aw ban or other regs.

Gray
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+1 - A special debt of gratitude goes to Gray. He's been an advocate and adviser to our nascent effort. His contributions have been significant. (NESers should recognize the name from Peterson v. LaCabe [smile])
 
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mark056 said:
I will also agree that we are created, my mother and father made me, so I was created by them.
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Mark, there should be little doubt in the historical context that most of those signing the Constitution (but surely not all), existed in a time where the culture had and demanded more deference to traditional "Christian" theological ideals.

That said, I don't find that important in understanding the wisdom of their design for government. We exist, therefore we were created and whatever force, person or process created us also endowed us with "natural rights."

One of those natural rights was the right to self defense. There are plenty of references to this in contemporary (to the Constitution) discussion. It logically extends from the right to defend yourself, including and perhaps especially from a tyrannical government requires that you have the means.

To recognize someone has a right, but refuse them the means to exercise it makes no sense in the context of liberty. As such, you should not need to describe the precise armament, but to say "sufficient" that such a natural right requires...

I am continually troubled by people who claim to support 2A rights, but don't like "this gun" or "that gun" or "rocket launchers," or whatever else scares them. The cold hard reality of government is that if you would not trust your drunk neighbor with it, you shouldn't let government have it either...

I think we all need to challenge ourselves and our fellow gun nuts to recognize how pervasive the incremental programming has been to demonize the instrument while ignoring the real "evil" that is the person or government misusing it.
 
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This is a slippery slope. On the face of it, it seems to be a very valid point. However, if legal aliens have the full protection and rights of United States Citizens, then why should they not be able to vote?
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There is no slippery slope - the right to vote is closely coupled with citizenship; other rights are not.

If you accept the premise that non-citizens do not have 2nd ammendment rights, then you are either accepting that the 2nd is a "lesser right" than others enumerated in the bill of rights, or are endorsing the concept that all elements of the bill of rights applies only to citizens - which would mean that the government would be allowed to:

- Restrict the speech of non-citizens
- Regulate which churches non-citizens may attend
- Deny non-citizens the right to remain silent when questioned about a crime
- Deny non-citizens the right to legal counsel, and to trial by jury
- Quarter troops in a non-citizen's home in time of peace
- Search the papers and effects of a non-citizen without warrant or probable cause
 
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LenS said:
HOWEVER, he told me that whenever he retired he would be taken care of for life with free socialized medical care and a fat retirement from the German gov't. I don't know for certain, but suspect that TÜV may be a gov't entity. If Juergen spots this perhaps he can elucidate on that.
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He'd be definitely entitled for retirement, given that he paid into the system (it's
mandatory over here as long as you are getting paid by an employer).
If he kept up his contributions even while living abroad, his entitlement is for the
full amount as if he still lived in Germany. Contributions to retirement are 50/50 by the employer and employee.
It's a bit different for medical care now: Contributions to healthcare are due from
retirement pay as well since several years, though at a reduced rate.

However, I don't see any difference if he changed his citizenship.
He paid, so he is entitled.

Now BTT: Keep up the good work and light some fire under the politico's feet.
 
Lip said:
My 2 cents worth, non citizens shouldn't have access to firearms. One cannot have 2 loyalties. Otherwise good job at least clarifying these muddled firearms laws.
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The constitution already answered that question against your "opinion":

Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

It says any "person", not any "citizen.
 
Gray Peterson said:
The constitution already answered that question against your "opinion":

Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

It says any "person", not any "citizen.
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It's never too late to amend it. Again just my 2 cents.
 

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