Comments on pistol training class

Joined
Apr 24, 2006
Messages
53,620
Likes
52,529
Location
Chelmsford MA
Feedback: 31 / 0 / 0
Pulled this from another forum, the OP didn't give any references - just his comments. He still has some interesting observations.

Premise:


Through another pistolero tuneup, this time an insane one, some lessons learned.


Generalities:


5 hours, 450 rounds, combat shooting.
Moving, multiple targets, up to 16 in close proximity charging forward or moving back by remote control.
All targets are half-sized sillhouettes, only COM and head shots count, no extremities.
Completely ambi-dexterous course, shoot/move/use-cover with the instructor shoving you to keep you moving at decent rate of speed.
All holsters needed retention and OWB-only allowed.
No administrative loading, only emergency reloads allowed.
No time for cleaning weapons, "run what ya brung" and "if it don't work, you get malf-drill practice".
Every mag is dumped on the concrete, every time. Nobody picks up mags until the entire drill is over. Bring mags that can survive ejecting into concrete walls, floors, and being stepped on. Minimum 5.
Class size, about a dozen.
Instructors 3, one Army trainer, one Blackwater, one "other contractor" fresh from Afghanistan.


The pistols:


1911s in .45 and even 9mm, Glocks, XD9s, S&W M&P's in 9mm and .45, and even one Kahr midsize (diminutive Asian shooter with tiny mitts, so it looked like a Colt Government on him) for variety.


Results:


First, the hardware. With this many rounds, usually in strings of between 30 and 90 per scenario, the need for OWB carry became clear... the pieces were smoking hot all morning and afternoon.


The 1911's:


All in .45 cal came through fine. Mine digested a few mags of mixed defense ammo for the first and last few mags, just for me to get my comfort level where it needs to be for "calling it good" after some mods. The rest of the ammo was ball, which should feed for 1000rds (or 4x that, ideally) without malf in any well-set-up-for-combat 1911.


The single most troublesome 1911 was the Kimber Govt-sized model in 9mm. Started strong, but around 100rds the first of many and increasing malfs: mags dropping out, FTE's, mags unable to be seated, FTRB's (Failure to return to battery), etc. A nightmare. Stay far away.


Biggest foreseen/unforeseen: I've always steered clear of the "extra cap" 8-rd mags with the accordion followers (shooting-star, mccormick, etc). Every single time one of those stupid, cheap-ass mags hit the concrete at speed, there were issues: either the follower would bounce/compress enough that it would either get turned sidways and require attention before reloading, or worse... it would get ejected right out of the mag, along with the spring. Springs don't survive boot-stompings too well. I lent a couple Wilson and factory Colt mags out.


Hot 1911 set up is govt-size, .45 cal, Wilson or Factory Colt mags with the small polymer floorplates for both protection of mag bottom and feed lips as you slam them home. Express sights (period, everything else is slower). NO SURPRISES HERE.


XDs: All were 9mm, and all worked well. It is odd that operator-headspace showed as all the XD shooters fatigued though. Every one, towards the end of class, failed to seat a mag at least once. This always resulted in 1 shot fired, then an ejected mag and empty gun. Since I seriously doubt any of us is going to have near 500rds handy for a short/brutal running pistol-battle, this is best addressed by "knowing" up front, and being vigorous in the way you operate the piece every time, consciously.


Glocks: All Glock shooters were severely handicapped halfway into the class. Remember I said the class was "insane", well one drill had us muzzle-sweeping ourselves AND each other 30 times (thats 30 with each hand) and racking slides on our boots, belts, etc. behind our backs. Every Glock lost its front sight to breakage. Until then, I hadn't thought about the sights being polymer, but they are. Glock shooters had to finish class without front sights. I am sure each has gone to steel sights now. Otherwise, the Glocks ran well, no troubles.


S&W M&P: Seemed to do well. Doesn't fit my hands (esp the .45) worth a damn, seems bigger and uglier than a 1911, so I have no interest in it, but the damn things seem to work. Ran on par with the real 1911s and Glocks for reliability.


The Kahr came through with only 1 malf, well, maybe 2 but I think the 2nd was operator-headspace. 1 FTF (real) and 1 more FTF (due to unseated mag IMO). This WAS a surprise. Note that this Kahr was a steel frame, not polymer frame model, and could be quite old for that line. Even with the good show, I wouldn't carry one as a "combat" piece. The high recoil for caliber and crap trigger made itself known on paper.


Observations:


Doubles, Triples (not Mozambiques), and other combos up to outright 5-mag-mag-dumps were performed on multiple targets while moving (or while targets moved, or both). Example with my 7rd mags: 3 doubles on a target + 1 to the head on 4th target, next mag put 3 in one target and dump mag in next after that, etc. Each stage added less mag dumps and more triples, quads, doubles in maddening orders which didn't always line up with mag capacities.


All the above are highly perishable skills. GOT to keep them up or lose them. Period, end of story. Watching videos, shooting paper in a lane slow fire, etc is no good. Zero. Wasted time. You will not retain that kind of skill unless you do EXACTLY that kind of practice. I give it 3 weeks before most of it is gone. Every weekend for a couple months, followed by relaxing to every 2 weeks at minimum for muscle memory.


On ammo, although I carry everything from atomic handloads to all manner of exotic/expensive factory stuff, I am just going to go to Corbon Powerball. Even the shittiest, cheesiest pistol feeds ball when filthy and unlubed. If I took 5 days of that kind of shooting, and didn't clean daily, I honestly don't think flying ashtrays are going to be feeding smoothly anymore. Although that's an extreme situation, why play games? 200-grains at 1050fps is good medicine, regardless if its a lead slug or some super hollowpoint. Keep the gun running no matter what, and cause your opponent lead-poisoning. The powerball will do both just fine. The more your ability to fill something full of LOTS of holes improves, the more you realize the 4 COM hits well inside 1.5 seconds are more important.


On mags, get the best you can afford. Period. Buy ONLY factory mags, in factory capacities, or pay serious money for "better than factory" mags from a reputable name like Wilson, Ed Brown, etc. Only buy ONE capacity and kind, the kind you want in a fight. For instance, there is no more room for my "range mags", and they are GONE after seeing springs and followers go flying. Last thing I need is to have gone to the range, dropped one, mangled the spring, and have it magically end up in my piece when i need it. Nope, ordered more Colt/Wilson mags, sold the junk (yes McCormick and others are JUNK by comparison). If you're a Glock guy, then buy Glock mags and not aftermarket. Same for HK, Sig, etc. etc. If you MUST do aftermarket, do MEC-GAR as they are an OEM for many of the big names.


Mag capacity: For the first time, with this kind of "do 5 mag dumps into 15 targets while being shoved at speed" style of shooting, having 7 in the mag is definitely a hindrance vs. the 10-17 others had in the hicap pieces. Of course, the upside was that I got 2x as much mag-change practice, but in reality mag-changing takes precious time no matter how "fast" you do it or how much cover is around. Faced with 4-5 targets, you realize that the last thing you want is to have to "ration" bullets "roadhouse style" (everyone gets served firsts, before anybody gets seconds). I'll have to research the double-stack .45s now, but in all likelyhood, sending the first 3 scumbags down with gaping/sucking chest or head through-and-throughs is going to make an impression on the rest. Still, not something to be counted on... there is no perfect.


On sights, tried them all, and I'll stick with my XS tritium big-dots, thanks. Everything else is slower and no more accurate at combat ranges, translation: everything else sucks because its slower and buys you nothing. Glock sights, made of polymer, simply MUST be replaced before that piece can be considered worth even lifting up and loading. With steel sights, its a good piece, without them, it's totally unfit for "duty" regardless of how that might be defined.


On fatigue, there is a lot to say. Almost all the troubles with pieces running were due to fatigue, and not powder/primer residue, heat, etc on the guns. That's saying a lot because a high round count in a short time makes for scalding hot, dirty guns. Not just that, but mag-dumps and fast strings really tax the feed and ejection systems. To have human-error be the biggest deciding factor in firearm reliability says volumes.


Don't end up dead after a <click> and a mag on the floor because you babied your precious little piece of steel. Get a real piece, and work it like it's meant to be worked, with some muscle and (frankly) abuse if needed. I don't care if my 1911 frame is battered to death in 20K rounds or 200K and if my slide and mags have ugly scratches instead of being shiny. 1911s and their mags are cheap, my life isn't.


Most important take-aways:


Surprise: Your gun only works as well as you work it. When really wringing it out with high round counts and short bursts of shooting.
Your gun only feeds from good mags, or from bullets you put in the chamber yourself; the former is vastly preferable.
Your gun only feeds good ammo, and if it has a ball profile, so much the better.
Express sights make you faster without sacrificing accuracy, and only a dumbass wouldn't spend $100 for that advantage.
None of the above matters if you can't hit your target, or worse, kill bystanders while missing at high speed until your gun runs empty (that would be right before the part where you die).
Train while moving, train by filling targets with lead, "shooting them to the ground", etc. (pick your motivational phrase, but do it).
Train often, or at least, more often. <--- Can't stress this enough.


Get a good piece, get more good training (saner and safer than what I just went through, I hope), get some skills, and get some peace of mind. Every time, I find myself "off balance", i.e. what I think will be easy this time is hard, and vice versa. Practice until it comes easy, and natural, and keep it that way. Obama can take the guns off shelves, but nobody can take your training. Get some, then get more.


Anybody wants to chime in on their past classes, and recurring themes in equipment/mindset/skills they see, please go ahead
 
Interesting. Sounds like a fun class [smile]

I am surprised about his remark on the Kahr triggers - their triggers are their hallmark. I've never seen a DAO trigger as smooth as the one on a K9 out of the box.
 
Back
Top Bottom